+ Reply to Thread
Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 1 2
Results 11 to 18 of 18

Thread: V180 first calibration newbie question

  1. #11
    Doyle is offline Fiery Forum Expert Contributor Doyle is on a distinguished path
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    255

    Default

    In testing I found it is not possible to export G7 calibration measurements and then bring them back in for a new calibration. It fiscally can be done but the output is way off. Something must be missing in exporting or loading the measurement in the new calibration dialog.

    So I guess if I want to try G7 calibration with the ES-2000 and then use the FWA and create a profile on top of that I would at least have to do the initial G7 calibration with 1 copy.

  2. #12
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Foster City, CA
    Posts
    287

    Default RE: V180 first calibration newbie question

    Quote Originally Posted by Doyle View Post
    Paul

    What I have been rolling around in my head is to use the ES-2000 to do the initial G7 calibration and then create a profile which is my normal process. Then if possible export the initial calibration and then import that when making a new calibration in CSW. Would that be the same as duplicating the initial calibration, or is there another way possible, or should I make a new G7 calibration. Then I would use the second/duplicate calibration to recalibrate with the FWA of the V2100 and then make an output profile with CPS and the ES-2000 on top of the FWA recalibration.

    I find your comment quite interesting about more consistent results recalibrating with FWA which is what I saw as well. There has been a huge improvement color consistency with software upgrades to the printing engine so I have not used FWA for calibration in quite some time as I have been happy with the results of the ES-2000. That was not the case when the V2100 was first released and I was using the FWA and getting more consistent results. I even figured out a way to create an output profile using the FWA calibration (only possible if you imported it) and then in the same process using the FWA for profile generation, but didn't think it was the best instrument to be using for profile generation.

    My apologies to the OP if we have kinds stepped on your thread here.
    Hi Doyle. This is basically the same as duplicating the calibration set, and this won't work for an alternative paper. You'll need to make calibration (G7 or not) for each and then a profile. If your idea is to duplicate so you can re-calibrate with FWA a calibration set made with ES-2000, this should not be required.

    ~Lou

  3. #13
    Doyle is offline Fiery Forum Expert Contributor Doyle is on a distinguished path
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    255

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lou_P View Post
    Hi Doyle. This is basically the same as duplicating the calibration set, and this won't work for an alternative paper. You'll need to make calibration (G7 or not) for each and then a profile. If your idea is to duplicate so you can re-calibrate with FWA a calibration set made with ES-2000, this should not be required.

    ~Lou
    This won't even work for the same paper. You can not export the measurement from a G7 calibration and then import it and have the same results as the original. At least when making a new calibration set with the same paper. In the past this seemed to work fine with a non G7 calibration.
    Last edited by Doyle; 03-09-2018 at 05:59 PM.

  4. #14
    Join Date
    May 2016
    Location
    Minneapolis, MN
    Posts
    2

    Default

    If you haven't gotten a chance to do the Versant training yet, "Rautmann, Nancy" <Nancy.Rautmann@xerox.com> at Xerox would be able to help you set up what you need to learn for this series and the fiery items that go along with this machine. (She helps set up and run the Analyst trainings at Xerox.)

    Additionally - I feel it is best practice to run the gradation adjustment on the machine prior to calibration. (Get your machine at optimum output before you adjust the software.)

  5. #15
    DragonLeaves is offline Fiery Forum Expert Contributor DragonLeaves is on a distinguished path
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Posts
    111

    Default the pyramid..

    When I setup stocks for a machine, I follow these simple rules to ensure great results.


    -1- ENSURE your drums are in good shape! For profiling at least 80% on each. in color quality the base of the pyramid is the quality of your hardware.

    0- Create a Custom Paper Settings for everything (I'll explain why later).

    1- On anything above 210gsm, run the image transfer adjustment. Note: I only saw the density uniformity tool used once on a bad stock.. Unless your drums are almost dead and your belt is equally almost dead, and even then, maybe only on 350gsm, you shouldn't need the density uniformity tool. I saw it used once on a V80, and once on a 3100, on all my customers. However, again, the image transfer tool is required for anything about even 100lb text for best results.

    2- As I said, run the image transfer to ensure that the stock has the best results on solids. If your humidity/temperature seriously goes out of whack later, run it again if you see a change. It'll help. When humidity goes close to zero, that image transfer tool will help.

    3- Create your alignment for the stock 'Tray 6 12x18 Silk 300' and stick to a certain nomenclature of your choice to make them easy to read as your create more over time. Tray 6 and 7 are pretty much interchangeable for alignments so are 1-2-3. They stick, also, FAR longer than any previous machine and they take 2 minutes to makes. Simplest process in the industry.

    4- Run at least 25 sheets before calibration, given your drums and everything else is in good shape. You can't calibrate a cold machine it won't give you optimal results. (this may actually be deprecated but its an old habit I'd have to run a fogra strip across first and 25th sheet to ensure this... I'll do that eventually but for now, its an old recommendation to run a few sheets first. Best time? Middle of a shift.

    5- If you have iProfiler (ideal) or CPS (good with the G7) then only use the defaults 90gsm plain /120gsm coated to segregate your stocks based on coating. The profile will take care of everything else. There is no perceivable difference these days if you create a custom calibration set or not for each stock. I sampled delta e and saw under 1 so no visible difference. Its insanity to do it the EFI way with a calibration sets per stock you end up calibrating all the time. I'd only do a custom calset if the white point or texture was vastly different.

    6- At that point run your targets and profile your stocks. Then import them and assign them to the paper catalog in Fiery so you don't need to always specify which profile for each stock. Usually on a Versant a profile for uncoated and a couple for gloss will get you through GRACoL compliance for everything. You don't need to go nuts with a profile per stock. You don't need 4000 or 6000 patches either. The 1617 or so standard works just as well. This isn't a linear relationship between number of patches and quality. It tops off around 1500.

    7- If you don't have a profiling software nor a spectrophotometer than try to use, over time, the same stocks when you calibrate and calibrate each of those five. If you are using plain paper, put about five sheets over your target when placing it on the glass.

    8- The rare times you need a custom calibration sets are usually when your stock has a very different white point or a vastly different texture that's messing up the Fiery. If you do create one, call it 'Custom CalSet xyz' so that in the list you'll remember this ain't a profile. Its a calibration set.


    Now a bit of background.

    When you calibrate, you are essentially ensuring that at 0%, it ain't dripping. Just like a plumber. You're ensuring that at 0,10,20,30% etc each of those primary colorants outputs the optimal quantity of toner. How do you know what's optimal quantity you ask? Well, you are basing your results off a certain stock, i.e., the Xerox 24lbs plain for example. So they tweak those densities based on a certain stock. How well it looks on a given stock is taken into account. The paper is the N'th colour in any printing system... (TM by me! lol) That's why you have five calibration sets that covers most stocks. Those calibration sets are then tied to profiles. These ICC profiles, be them for a TV or a paper, are basically just a huge lookup table... for that LAB color, do this in CMYK, and so on. Its a two column spreadsheet which, from all those 1500 little squares of different color it scanned, tells the machine how to print colours accurately on this or that paper. Its like a pair of glasses for the machine and a certain paper. The profile also takes into account the white point of the paper. You see, depending if your paper has too much optical brighteners (ie its blueish) or its yellowish, that paper white point is essentially the N'th color in any printing system. It matters. So you can bet that any paper that has a white point close to the reference point of your default calibration set/profile combo will work well given a similar surface. If you never callibrate the 300gsm gloss and you are printing on that then you'll usually find you have a magenta cast btw. Having someone like me do the profile and colour training is usually worth it if you want stellar quality that is repeatable. People that calibrate sporadically on changing papers ensure that they have no consistency over time: the customer comes back a year later and they can't match the proof: they don't remember which particular paper they calibrated on back them and when etc. Try to ensure you stick to your house brands for calibration. Other thing: you don't need to calibrate all the time. Those days are gone. Look, when do you wax your car? Well, you look at your car, and decide right? Same with your printer. Get yourself a quality control document that exposes primary gradients, flesh tones, spot colors etc. and print that once the machine is pristine and calibrated/profiled. Keep it! Then print it again and compare that output before a colour critical job and you'll know if you need to calibrate. Remember, you need to calibrate the calibration sets that is the closest to the stock you'll print on. If you are doing glossy business cards then that's Gloss 300gsm. If you are doing a Cougar 350 then that's either Uncoated 90 (or a custom calset since that stock is hard). A custom ICC profile (not a custom calset) will give you far better definition in highlights and shadows, give you a crisper look and better more accurate color and details. If you reread this post a couple of time and stick to the recommendation you'll find having consistent color is easy.

    9 - Use the Paper Catalog in Fiery to assign those profiles! I know I've said this but doing this will save you lots of problems and its far easier to set up job with the Custom Paper Settings integration into the Paper Catalog since you only need to have one dropdown: the paper catalog dropdown.

    Okay, my fingers are numb feel free to ask me anything else cheers!

  6. #16
    Doyle is offline Fiery Forum Expert Contributor Doyle is on a distinguished path
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    255

    Default

    I disagree with your assessment of the need for running the Density Uniformity Tool. To access the quality of you drums you need to run the Spot/Streak Diagnostic tool. After running that you will be able to tell if you have uniform density from inboard to outboard. If you see that the colors are not uniform than you need to run the Density Uniformity Tool.

    In practice as drums age they do not often stay uniform from inboard to outboard. You need to correct that as needed. When drums are replaced you surly do not want the old uniform density setting to be applied to the new drum. In that case always run the Density Uniformity Tool when drums are replaced. Also I find it a good practice to Restore Factory Default Setting because I have seen bad results from running the Density Uniformity Tool on top of old uniform density setting from old drums when replacing them with new drums.

  7. #17
    DragonLeaves is offline Fiery Forum Expert Contributor DragonLeaves is on a distinguished path
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Posts
    111

    Default Well, for everything else, you're welcomed.

    Well, for everything else, you're welcomed.


    Quote Originally Posted by Doyle View Post
    I disagree with your assessment of the need for running the Density Uniformity Tool. To access the quality of you drums you need to run the Spot/Streak Diagnostic tool. After running that you will be able to tell if you have uniform density from inboard to outboard. If you see that the colors are not uniform than you need to run the Density Uniformity Tool.

    In practice as drums age they do not often stay uniform from inboard to outboard. You need to correct that as needed. When drums are replaced you surly do not want the old uniform density setting to be applied to the new drum. In that case always run the Density Uniformity Tool when drums are replaced. Also I find it a good practice to Restore Factory Default Setting because I have seen bad results from running the Density Uniformity Tool on top of old uniform density setting from old drums when replacing them with new drums.

  8. #18
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Posts
    2

    Default Density uniformity tool is not the same as SIQA

    Also, you have to know, that Density uniformity tool (DUT) is for field engineer use only and is not the good daily tool to use for such task. Instead, use SIQA -> Density uniformity adjustment which is for Versant user is more simple, more automated and easy to use. And there is no need in correct spectro for it.
    IDK why to use DUT if you have access to FWA or SIQA.

    Quote Originally Posted by Doyle View Post
    I disagree with your assessment of the need for running the Density Uniformity Tool. To access the quality of you drums you need to run the Spot/Streak Diagnostic tool. After running that you will be able to tell if you have uniform density from inboard to outboard. If you see that the colors are not uniform than you need to run the Density Uniformity Tool.

    In practice as drums age they do not often stay uniform from inboard to outboard. You need to correct that as needed. When drums are replaced you surly do not want the old uniform density setting to be applied to the new drum. In that case always run the Density Uniformity Tool when drums are replaced. Also I find it a good practice to Restore Factory Default Setting because I have seen bad results from running the Density Uniformity Tool on top of old uniform density setting from old drums when replacing them with new drums.

+ Reply to Thread
Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 1 2

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts