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Thread: V180 first calibration newbie question

  1. #1
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    Default V180 first calibration newbie question

    Hi all and thank you in advance for those who will give me some piece of advice

    My name is Stefano and I just started using a V180 printer with Fiery Full Package (Color Profiler Suite, Spectrophotometer, ecc. ecc.). I'm really a newbie so I hope my questions won't be kind of stupid.

    From what I got I'd better profile my paper stock (output) and then calibrate the printer to make sure the result is consistent in time with the profile. Till here everything sharp and clear

    I'm just wondering if there is some sort of pre-calibration or pre-check I'd better make before profiling the paper stock, in order to make sure the press starts working in perfect condition.

    Thanks

    Stefano

  2. #2
    Doyle is online now Fiery Forum Expert Contributor Doyle is on a distinguished path
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    Two things you want to do first. Dial in your Secondary Voltage Transfer first. I like to print 100% of Cyan and Magenta together. You can do this in the Clean Toner Dialog choosing print, or make a file with 2 pages with C&M combined then print with no Color Management. That way you can check both side 1 and side 2. Then second do your uniform density making sure it is good. Then you should be good to go with calibration and profiling.

    Did Xerox not send an analyst to show you how to do this?

  3. #3
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    Thank you very much, all clear!

    Actually I am a Xerox Partner and bought the press in order to learn how to use it before trying to sell it I am starting from scratch

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    Hi all, I did it and most importantly understood what I did. I just have another quick question:

    Basically I created a output profile for my paper stock (i.e. Symbol Glossy SRA3 350gsm) with CPS and imported it to CW6. I also assigned the output profile to the paper stock in paper catalog.

    At this point I noticed that to calibrate, I have to assign a calibration set for that profile. Hence, I created a new calibration set, but after doing it I noticed that CW6 saved this calibration set in the in the output profiles list...

    I don't get wether calibration sets are saved as output profiles or I created by accident another output profile as a outcome of the newly created calibration set.

    Thank you in advance for your time

  5. #5
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    Default Calibrate, then Profile

    Calibration sets cannot be saved as output profiles: these are 2 different things. Yes, you did create another output profile when you created a new calibration set.

    Here is how it works:

    • When you want the best possible output quality for a paper, you first create a calibration set. This process provides measurements that tells the Fiery how colorants (C, M, Y, K) independently behave on this paper. Fiery Calibrator calculates a “target” for each colorant, i.e. a response that each re-calibration will attempt to reproduce.
    • Recalibrating is faster than profiling. It can be done daily. Less measurements are needed than for profiling, because the objective of calibration is mostly limited to produce a well-controlled, repeatable color space. A calibrated printer is expected to produce the same color day after day. Calibration does not know the exact color produced by the printer. It just knows how to control ink amounts to match a calibration target.
    • A profile tells your Fiery the exact colors the printer can produce by mixing different amounts of colorants. A profile is valid as long as the printer’s color response has not changed since the profile was created. You can therefore reuse your profile as long as the calibrated state in use when the profile was created is still available.

    Creating a new calibration set results in a new reproducible color space. After creating a new calibration, you should therefore create an output profile to let the Fiery know details about this new color space. Calibration and profile work together. It is convenient to give the same name to both the calibration and the profile, but they really are different beasts.

    If both work together, why are they separate? Part of a longer answer is that EFI does not force its customers to use Fiery Color Profiler Suite to create profiles. If you import a profile created by a third-party software, you need to tell the Fiery for which calibrated state this profile is valid, by associating the profile with a calibration. This association is automatic with CPS. It is only one among many reasons why CPS is the most recommended profiling package for Fiery owners.

    For any job, you cannot directly specify a calibration set. You must specify an output profile. The calibration set associated with this output profile will automatically be used. This is why, when you create a calibration, but do not formally create an optimized profile by immediately printing calibrated patches and measuring them, a “placeholder” output profile by the same name as the calibration is created. This profile can be used to print calibrated profiling patches later, with CPS or with a third-party profiling software.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul_M View Post
    Calibration sets cannot be saved as output profiles: these are 2 different things. Yes, you did create another output profile when you created a new calibration set.

    Here is how it works:

    • When you want the best possible output quality for a paper, you first create a calibration set. This process provides measurements that tells the Fiery how colorants (C, M, Y, K) independently behave on this paper. Fiery Calibrator calculates a “target” for each colorant, i.e. a response that each re-calibration will attempt to reproduce.
    • Recalibrating is faster than profiling. It can be done daily. Less measurements are needed than for profiling, because the objective of calibration is mostly limited to produce a well-controlled, repeatable color space. A calibrated printer is expected to produce the same color day after day. Calibration does not know the exact color produced by the printer. It just knows how to control ink amounts to match a calibration target.
    • A profile tells your Fiery the exact colors the printer can produce by mixing different amounts of colorants. A profile is valid as long as the printer’s color response has not changed since the profile was created. You can therefore reuse your profile as long as the calibrated state in use when the profile was created is still available.

    Creating a new calibration set results in a new reproducible color space. After creating a new calibration, you should therefore create an output profile to let the Fiery know details about this new color space. Calibration and profile work together. It is convenient to give the same name to both the calibration and the profile, but they really are different beasts.

    If both work together, why are they separate? Part of a longer answer is that EFI does not force its customers to use Fiery Color Profiler Suite to create profiles. If you import a profile created by a third-party software, you need to tell the Fiery for which calibrated state this profile is valid, by associating the profile with a calibration. This association is automatic with CPS. It is only one among many reasons why CPS is the most recommended profiling package for Fiery owners.

    For any job, you cannot directly specify a calibration set. You must specify an output profile. The calibration set associated with this output profile will automatically be used. This is why, when you create a calibration, but do not formally create an optimized profile by immediately printing calibrated patches and measuring them, a “placeholder” output profile by the same name as the calibration is created. This profile can be used to print calibrated profiling patches later, with CPS or with a third-party profiling software.
    Awesome!!! Thank you for the super clear reply

  7. #7
    Doyle is online now Fiery Forum Expert Contributor Doyle is on a distinguished path
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    Paul this is great information and really needed to set everyone straight on the proper procedure.

    What I have often wonder and just have not gotten around to experimenting with is. If I create a G7 calibration, then profile, then is there a way to copy/duplicate that calibration for use with CWS using another instrument especially like the FWA or the ILS? The reason I am asking is that I would like to retain the G7 calibration but recalibrate withe the FWA or ILS for operator simplicity and then create a new profile on top of that recalibration. I realize I could do this with the original calibration but I would have no real way to compare the two outputs and with a new profile or not. Short of duplicating I guess I could just make two calibration sets at the same time using the same target calibration target but don't think I could use the same G7 targets.

  8. #8
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    Default FWA, ILS and G7

    Let me try to not lose newbies in the first part of this answer. Doyle is clearly not a newbie!

    Full Width Arrays and Inline Spectrophotometers are inline measurements devices, essentially automated scanners integrated to a printer. Their main advantages are consequences of automation: less trainings, less user errors, significant convenience, etc. I love them! On the other hand, their working environment brings significant constraints leading to difficulties with absolute accuracy and compliance to standards. I am raising these points to promote this practice: keep reusing the same instruments for the same function. If a calibration target is created with a FWA, chances are that you will get more consistent results recalibrating with FWA than with an admittedly more accurate device like a non-inline spectrophotometer. The opposite is also true. What you want to avoid is to bias a process because of differences between two instruments. It is perfectly acceptable to calibrate and recalibrate with a measurement device and then to use a different measurement device to profile and verify the profile accuracy. Makes sense?

    Oversimplifying for newbies’ benefit, the G7 methodology specifies CMY mixtures that will appear to be neutral grays when output by a G7 calibrated printer, no matter the printer brand or process. Recent versions of Fiery Color Profiler Suite (FCPS) optionally let you create G7 calibrations. There are valid reasons for which some advanced customers want G7, but let’s keep these reasons out of the scope of this thread. Let’s just retain that:
    • Fiery printers can produce best color quality with and without G7 calibration;
    • For precise color management, a custom output profile is still needed to describe to the Fiery the exact color produced by a G7 calibrated printer;
    • G7 is measurement instrument independent.

    Now, for experts like Doyle: first don’t be confused if you inspect the target of a calibration set you have specified for G7. I have asked EFI to add the following note in Calibrator’s Help and CPS Release Notes. This note applies uniquely to toner printers calibrated using density measurements.
    Note: When Fiery Color Profiler Suite is installed and licensed, Calibrator offers to optionally create G7 calibrations. With these calibrations, transfer curves are applied over an underlying Fiery calibration target in order to reach G7 gray balance. Calibration Manager displays the underlying regular Fiery calibration target, not the temporary G7 transfer curves. Like it is the case for calibrations with regular Fiery targets, transfer curves used to reach the calibrated state are not displayed by Calibration Manager. These transfer curves are temporary because they are recomputed with every recalibration.

    Doyle wrote: “The reason I am asking is that I would like to retain the G7 calibration but recalibrate with the FWA or ILS for operator simplicity and then create a new profile on top of that recalibration.
    • For the first part (calibration), I need to check the product-specific inline sensor implementation to provide an accurate answer. Let me know the exact product(s) you are considering. I should be able to reply back by next week.
    • For the second part (profile), I do not see a problem. I like it. As long as recalibration is done the same way, the same results can be expected, and the profile will remain valid, even if different instruments were used for the calibration and profiling steps.

  9. #9
    Doyle is online now Fiery Forum Expert Contributor Doyle is on a distinguished path
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    Paul

    What I have been rolling around in my head is to use the ES-2000 to do the initial G7 calibration and then create a profile which is my normal process. Then if possible export the initial calibration and then import that when making a new calibration in CSW. Would that be the same as duplicating the initial calibration, or is there another way possible, or should I make a new G7 calibration. Then I would use the second/duplicate calibration to recalibrate with the FWA of the V2100 and then make an output profile with CPS and the ES-2000 on top of the FWA recalibration.

    I find your comment quite interesting about more consistent results recalibrating with FWA which is what I saw as well. There has been a huge improvement color consistency with software upgrades to the printing engine so I have not used FWA for calibration in quite some time as I have been happy with the results of the ES-2000. That was not the case when the V2100 was first released and I was using the FWA and getting more consistent results. I even figured out a way to create a output profile using the FWA calibration (only possible if you imported it) and then in the same process using the FWA for profile generation, but didn't think it was the best instrument to be using for profile generation.

    My apologies to the OP if we have kinds stepped on your thread here.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul_M View Post
    Let me try to not lose newbies in the first part of this answer. Doyle is clearly not a newbie!

    Full Width Arrays and Inline Spectrophotometers are inline measurements devices, essentially automated scanners integrated to a printer. Their main advantages are consequences of automation: less trainings, less user errors, significant convenience, etc. I love them! On the other hand, their working environment brings significant constraints leading to difficulties with absolute accuracy and compliance to standards. I am raising these points to promote this practice: keep reusing the same instruments for the same function. If a calibration target is created with a FWA, chances are that you will get more consistent results recalibrating with FWA than with an admittedly more accurate device like a non-inline spectrophotometer. The opposite is also true. What you want to avoid is to bias a process because of differences between two instruments. It is perfectly acceptable to calibrate and recalibrate with a measurement device and then to use a different measurement device to profile and verify the profile accuracy. Makes sense?

    Oversimplifying for newbies’ benefit, the G7 methodology specifies CMY mixtures that will appear to be neutral grays when output by a G7 calibrated printer, no matter the printer brand or process. Recent versions of Fiery Color Profiler Suite (FCPS) optionally let you create G7 calibrations. There are valid reasons for which some advanced customers want G7, but let’s keep these reasons out of the scope of this thread. Let’s just retain that:
    • Fiery printers can produce best color quality with and without G7 calibration;
    • For precise color management, a custom output profile is still needed to describe to the Fiery the exact color produced by a G7 calibrated printer;
    • G7 is measurement instrument independent.

    Now, for experts like Doyle: first don’t be confused if you inspect the target of a calibration set you have specified for G7. I have asked EFI to add the following note in Calibrator’s Help and CPS Release Notes. This note applies uniquely to toner printers calibrated using density measurements.
    Note: When Fiery Color Profiler Suite is installed and licensed, Calibrator offers to optionally create G7 calibrations. With these calibrations, transfer curves are applied over an underlying Fiery calibration target in order to reach G7 gray balance. Calibration Manager displays the underlying regular Fiery calibration target, not the temporary G7 transfer curves. Like it is the case for calibrations with regular Fiery targets, transfer curves used to reach the calibrated state are not displayed by Calibration Manager. These transfer curves are temporary because they are recomputed with every recalibration.

    Doyle wrote: “The reason I am asking is that I would like to retain the G7 calibration but recalibrate with the FWA or ILS for operator simplicity and then create a new profile on top of that recalibration.
    • For the first part (calibration), I need to check the product-specific inline sensor implementation to provide an accurate answer. Let me know the exact product(s) you are considering. I should be able to reply back by next week.
    • For the second part (profile), I do not see a problem. I like it. As long as recalibration is done the same way, the same results can be expected, and the profile will remain valid, even if different instruments were used for the calibration and profiling steps.
    I'm understanding and it feels great! That's very appreciated!

    Just another question: let's say that after I created a Calibration Set and related ICC profile, I want to improve the ICC profile by adding more measurements. Is it possible?

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