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Thread: Paper Profile Falls Apart After First Calibration

  1. #11
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    People often use CPS to calibrate when they have an instrument that is not supported in CWS.

    In theory you can re-calibrate from CPS or CWS but you are reporting a problem so let's take a further look.

  2. #12
    adause is offline Senior Fiery Forum Contributor adause is on a distinguished path
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    Okay so printer model and software versions are in my first post. In a rush so I wanted to leave results of Lou's instructed recal.

    Okay so all M0. G7 used PSP51 Random 2-up

    Used 1485 Random for color patches

    Justin, the output profile in the job properties for the patches was efi test_temp (called the profile "efi test")

    Results are interesting. There was a shift however not anything like when I used M0 and M1. This time it seemed to be lacking something maybe M (it's changed but hard to be certain atm) after the recal through CWS. As I said there was a change but nothing as drastic as the others. The initial output was again dead on however again a noticeable shift after recal.

    Something seem to be effecting the profile.

    Lou I exported the profile for you before I recal'd in CWS. So am I understanding you correctly now that I did that you want me to export that profile again but rename it?

    Also am I able to upload those or email you them.

    Thanks guys appreciate all the help.
    Last edited by adause; 01-29-2018 at 06:33 PM.

  3. #13
    Doyle is offline Fiery Forum Expert Contributor Doyle is on a distinguished path
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    I just happened to think about this bug I found a while back. Might be whats happening when you make the initial calibration in CPS or possibility the re-calibration in CWS.
    http://fieryforums.efi.com/showthrea...ssigned-in-CWS

    Did you make any edits to your profiles in CWS and then maybe set one of those to the default profile? That is the only thing I could every determine what might have been the cause of this.

  4. #14
    adause is offline Senior Fiery Forum Contributor adause is on a distinguished path
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    Hey Doyle so I didn't make any edits what so ever.

    Which makes me think of another issue which is, if a customers file does not have pantones or vector objects and wants to tweek colors, I feel the only way this can be done is by editing the source file. Trying to do it through curves would not be good with a G7 est profile I would think.

    That's another subject for another time though.

  5. #15
    adause is offline Senior Fiery Forum Contributor adause is on a distinguished path
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    Okay so I really am not trying to make this problem worse or something it's not but here is another scenario I experienced this morning. So the reason I did this is because there is something that has bothered me for a while now. Given I'm seeing the change in the profile discussed earlier in this thread, I tried to pay attention to process.

    So the thing that has bothered me is at the end of making your profile you choose what factory paper type most resembles the paper you are using to build the calibration. I have no idea what it is pulling from this factory profile but I heard something about black information that we as users most likely wouldn't be able to dial in as good as EFI when they build these factory profiles for the respective printer/engine.

    The problem I always had was when you look at the screen associated with the factory profile on mine it is 200 Dot. All the profiles I have built do not use this screen. So if I calibrate the factory profile which I use also, through CWS Calibration it calibrates for 200 Dot. If I run an image it looks good. If I roll off that say to 200 Dot Fine Text and Graphics it fails and prints differently. So stay with me please because clarification on this would be really great.

    So back to build the profile, wouldn't tethering the factory profile at the end change the behavior of the profile that is created using a different screen type?

    Back to what I experienced today. Because of this and my RIP set to default to 200 Dot FT&G, and the factory profile set to 200 Dot and given what I mentioned above I thought, okay I will build a calibration this time through CWS NOT CPS just to do a quick test. During the profile setup it seems tords the end to possibly use CPS to "optimize" the profile. I say this because the same widow pops up that does at the end of building your profile with CPS.

    Again it ask me to choose what most resembles your paper you are calibrating, I coose the Factory profile. Profiling complete.

    Now I run the same image I am using earlier in the discussion and just run it through. Looks not good (but this I believe is due to the 200Dot FT&G screen which I see something going on with) but okay so this was what I was gonna get through CWS quick profile solution.

    However I went and calibrated the profile or recalibrated/linerized as I did with the other profile as discussed earlier in this thread. The result, colors shifted. Something is going on and I can say this the shift is subtle but noticable and it reminds me of the test I did for Lou using M0 because this is what it is using through out the process and again the shift is subtle but apparent.

    I am hoping all this info is helping because this really has me scratching my head on what I can depend on and what is going on.

    Thanks guys as always

  6. #16
    Doyle is offline Fiery Forum Expert Contributor Doyle is on a distinguished path
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    What ever screen you want to print you need to create a new calibration and profile using that screen. It is also good to check your Secondary Voltage Transfer before you start this process as different screens may very well effect this.

    As for Black Generation it is probably best to start from the GCR of default profile (which is all your really getting from it) but you can always adjust that to what every you like and see how it affects output for a particular job. Just save your Profile measurements and go back and regenerate with different GCR as much as you like.

    I doubt EFI will ever admit this but I would not be surprised that they are told by the printers manufactures to go heavy on the blacks to minimize toner costs for leased machines. Many times I have seen the Black Start way higher than I would ever what it to be. Not sure about every printer out there but the black lay down is always the roughest looking so minimizing that in the highlight and quarter tones is something you will probably what to do. Of course the trade off is it is harder to maintain neutral grey.

  7. #17
    adause is offline Senior Fiery Forum Contributor adause is on a distinguished path
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    Appreciate that bit of information Doyle, thank you.

    So let me ask this then. Are you saying that when we select the factory profile that most resembles out paper type, all that is carried from that factory profile is the black generation, nothing else is taken into account as is the screen that was used when the factory profile was created?

    Just trying to get a better understanding of that part.

  8. #18
    Doyle is offline Fiery Forum Expert Contributor Doyle is on a distinguished path
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    What ever you see in that dialog is it AFAIK.

  9. #19
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    You can email them to me on a private message. Justin thinks you may have found a software defect so after we look we'll advise you how to proceed.

  10. #20
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    This is an eye opening thread.....so now I have a question based on questions asked within this thread. If I use iSis XL to calibrate, G7 calibrate, all M0. G7 used PSP51 Random 2-up, and used 1485 Random for color patches (print 10 and read last 3 to average) to create my output profile. When we calibrate thereafter we use ES-2000. Am I entering a variable that can cause change? We calibrate every machine every 4-6 hours due to the large volumes of work and every fiery has it's own ES-2000 while I only have one iSis.

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