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Thread: Custom Spot Color Bug

  1. #1
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    Default Custom Spot Color Bug

    Our Xerox Analyst was suppose to submit this bug to you but he ended up retiring before getting the chance. So, I thought I'd post here so it gets recognized and fixed.

    Our studio uses a LOT of Pantone spot colors. There are times where we need to tweak the Pantone colors for print accuracy. I gathered a list of our clients corporate spot colors so I could print them out and create a custom group of spot colors that were adjusted to be as close as possible when printed. Here's where the bug was discovered...

    I create a custom group and place at the top of the Spot Color Resources area. I was told that the priority of color look-up happens from top to bottom, so if the group is at the top, it will override any other library. I then go to the locked, stock/provided Pantone library, find the color and "Copy" the color. I then go to my custom group and paste that color. This way it's accurately named, the numbers for that spot color are already populated and this allows me to start adjusting the color without impacting the "original". IF you create a spot color by a "copy", CWS (5 or 6) completely disregards any adjustments you made.

    Now, if I create a custom group, place it at the top (like I mentioned above) but this time create a NEW color spot color and name it the same as the "original" Pantone color, CWS (5 or 6) will then honor any adjustments you make. This method takes a lot longer, frustrating and prone to input error. You have to enter the name EXACTLY as it is in the original library, Then you have to write down the exact numbers of the original spot color, create and enter all that information in the newly created spot. Save that and then start any adjustments. Hoping all was entered correctly.

    Can you please fix the copy, paste and adjusting spot colors?

    I have included some attachments for viewing.

    In one of them you can see my group "Copied/Pasted/Adjusted" and see my customized values (I purposely made magenta for visual reference). I "release raster" on my job, processed and held to get an accurate job preview. If you look at that preview, it's still the Pantone 294 C from the original library. CWS ignored my custom color.

    Now in the second attachment, you can see my group "NewlyCreatedSpot/NamedSame/CustomColor" with a NEWLY created spot color. I manually typed in the Pantone name exactly as it is in the original library and adjusted the colors (again, far off color for visual reference). I "release raster" on my job, processed and held to get an accurate job preview. If you look at that preview, you can now see that CWS has used this new spot values.

    This might not impact many but we liked to get our color as accurately as possible since many of our prints go to our clients for reviews, meetings, presentations. We have very large corporations as our clients and need to maintain this level of correctness. I need to create this custom library/colors on 3 machines and have MANY colors to tweak. It would be nice to copy, paste and edit rather than the manual way.

    Thanks!
    Attached Images    

  2. #2
    thistlegorm is offline Fiery Forum Expert Contributor thistlegorm has achieved rock star status thistlegorm has achieved rock star status thistlegorm has achieved rock star status thistlegorm has achieved rock star status thistlegorm has achieved rock star status thistlegorm has achieved rock star status thistlegorm has achieved rock star status thistlegorm has achieved rock star status thistlegorm has achieved rock star status thistlegorm has achieved rock star status thistlegorm has achieved rock star status
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    Not sure I am following your logic ?

    Before doing anything with Spot Colours - you use the properties button & select stock / output profile that you are using within the job.

    Next why are you copying existing Pantone Coated Colours into a separate colour library ? e.g. Pantone 32 C = 1,2,3,4 in a 90gsm output profile - you change to 6,7,8,9 if it does not print as you are looking for - you just revert to factory ? surely to get you back to where you was ?

    We have more than 1 x Xerox Analyst - I know... perhaps raise a ticket from Xerox Software support utilising the screenshots you have provided - you are much more likely to get the issue ( if it exists ? ) fixed from EFI with solid vendor led escalation.

    I'll have a look next time I am in front of a V80..
    Last edited by thistlegorm; 08-16-2017 at 04:47 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by thistlegorm View Post
    Not sure I am following your logic ?

    Before doing anything with Spot Colours - you use the properties button & select stock / output profile that you are using within the job.

    Next why are you copying existing Pantone Coated Colours into a separate colour library ? e.g. Pantone 32 C = 1,2,3,4 in a 90gsm output profile - you change to 6,7,8,9 if it does not print as you are looking for - you just revert to factory ? surely to get you back to where you was ?

    We have more than 1 x Xerox Analyst - I know... perhaps raise a ticket from Xerox Software support utilising the screenshots you have provided - you are much more likely to get the issue ( if it exists ? ) fixed from EFI with solid vendor led escalation.

    I'll have a look next time I am in front of a V80..
    Sorry if there's any confusion, however putting reason and logic behind on why exactly I'm doing it, the fact is that if you copy an existing Pantone Spot Color and alter the values the Fiery does not acknowledge your changes. Creating a Pantone, naming it the same and setting your values does work. I believe this is a bug with the Fiery Software that EFI needs to address.

    I'm not going to a different workflow/profile where I could be mistaken. I go to device central, Spot colors and performed these changes all in the same area and can see results in my preview after these steps. The fact is that one way works, the other doesn't.

    We have a Xerox Analyst but he is NOT nearly as friendly or helpful as our previous (now retired) Analyst. I inquired about some of our difficulties and the first thing out of his mouth was "I will have to bill the company if I come out". Our Parent company contracts well over 300+ Xerox devices! Not sure he realizes how big of an account we are for their company. I was not impressed with his response and have since then tried to avoid communicating with him. Xerox has been going through a lot of changes and frankly their services has SEVERELY gone down hill!

  4. #4
    adam1991 is offline Fiery Forum Expert Contributor adam1991 has proven very helpful adam1991 has proven very helpful adam1991 has proven very helpful adam1991 has proven very helpful adam1991 has proven very helpful
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    Quote Originally Posted by thistlegorm View Post
    Next why are you copying existing Pantone Coated Colours into a separate colour library ?
    You would be SHOCKED at the number of workflows and designs that have evolved over the years out there, where designers specify one color but want another. For example, I know of a team that specifies Pantone 201 but they want 202.

    On press, this is no big deal. On digital, it's a big deal. Hence this particular digital workflow.

    And there's no convincing the customer to change what he does. That's why the digital systems have evolved like this, to accommodate screwy workflows. (Witness the substitute color thing as well. Same thing.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by adam1991 View Post
    You would be SHOCKED at the number of workflows and designs that have evolved over the years out there, where designers specify one color but want another. For example, I know of a team that specifies Pantone 201 but they want 202.

    On press, this is no big deal. On digital, it's a big deal. Hence this particular digital workflow.

    And there's no convincing the customer to change what he does. That's why the digital systems have evolved like this, to accommodate screwy workflows. (Witness the substitute color thing as well. Same thing.)
    Xerox printers, even with daily calibration, can't print Pantone spot colors accurately enough for us. So, I create this custom color lookup group so we can duplicate client branded spot colors and finely tune the values to get them near perfect Pantone reproduction.

    My process starts with printing each commonly used client spot color from our Xerox Versant 80. I then evaluate that print against our Pantone swatch chips, under our light controlled booth. I adjust the values of the custom created spot color in CWS. I repeat this for each of our important spot colors. This way anytime one of my users prints that spot it's as accurate as possible.

    As part of this process, I usually duplicate the default CWS Pantone color (through a copy and paste or create from scratch with same values) so I always have the original to go revert to if needed. If I alter the "locked" set, I then wouldn't have an original.

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    Ok - Understand now - I tried exactly as you described on a Xerox C70 V2 with Fiery / Versant 80 & VP180 - followed your instructions as you described & all works as you want - i.e Cut Paste Pantone into New Group & placing Group at Top of pile - default Output Profile everything else default - Process & Held, Pantone Colour Holds - I cannot make it go wrong ? that is not to say there isn't a bug - but it must be specific to your Fiery or there is a difference on the Fiery Config between our platforms / Language etc ? also tried with both CWS 5.8 & 6.

    This really needs recreating on your system & a JER captured & perhaps either a psr or Install something like Cam Studio & create a Video of the exact steps you took to arrive at the issue - then contact Xerox software support with all that data & get them to recreate in their lab ? if it can be recreated - generally it can get fixed..

    Sorry was actually hoping I could recreate - but as I say, it all works as you want for me..

    PS if you alter a locked Pantone original CMYK - to get back to where you were just right click on the Pantone & "revert to factory" - also when you cut paste your Pantone into your new group, the Output Profile the stock is using isn't changing is it ?
    Last edited by thistlegorm; 08-17-2017 at 01:27 PM.
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by thistlegorm View Post
    Ok - Understand now - I tried exactly as you described on a Xerox C70 V2 with Fiery / Versant 80 & VP180 - followed your instructions as you described & all works as you want - i.e Cut Paste Pantone into New Group & placing Group at Top of pile - default Output Profile everything else default - Process & Held, Pantone Colour Holds - I cannot make it go wrong ? that is not to say there isn't a bug - but it must be specific to your Fiery or there is a difference on the Fiery Config between our platforms / Language etc ? also tried with both CWS 5.8 & 6.
    This is what I do, step by step:
    1. Navigate to Device Center and down to Spot color.
    2. Go to CWS provided (locked) Pantone Coated group and copy a Spot color.
    3. Create a new group and arrange it to the top of the list.
    4. Paste the copied Pantone spot color into this new group.
    5. Edit the properties of that pasted spot color so it is dramatically different (to be sure it's working).
    6. Send a print (or reprocess) utilizing the same Pantone color you pasted and altered.

    The result of CWS not acknowledging my changed values happened on all three of my Versant 80s w/ Fiery Rip running CWS6 and our previous Xerox 700i's w/ Fiery Rip running CWS5. The copy, paste and adjust colors did not work. Again, 6 different rips and 6 different Xerox printers.

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    Thanks for clarifying - that is exactly what I did - Pantone 806 C & a couple of others - mine works as you want. So there must be a difference between our RIP configuration / Patch version / install order - something must be different ? I know your have had a bad experience with your new contact - but this really needs to be captured & escalated to EFI via the vendor - if you collect the data - are you not able to initiate a remote session with Xerox Software Support & get the data you have collected remotely ?

    I am assuming you are on Ver 1.2 Software on the Fiery & do you have Ver 1.2 DVD or a previous ver & then Upgraded to Ver 1.2 via the A,B,C patches ?
    Last edited by thistlegorm; 08-17-2017 at 02:15 PM.
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  9. #9
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    I recorded a video of what exactly is happening.

    https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B4...XdKT1RjdDdhcE0
    1. At first circle the cursor over the preview to show the held job has Pantone 294C (blue) used.
    2. Then I create a color group and copy PMS 204 from the locked default Pantone library.
    3. I paste that copied Pantone into the "Color Test" color group I made and adjust the color to a magenta hue.
    4. I delete the raster image on the held job and re-rip to show the color did not accept my new color values.
    5. I Go back into the custom color and copy and paste the Spot Pantone name and delete that one i Pasted in that custom color group.
    6. I then create a new color swatch, paste the original name and create values of a beige/peach color.
    7. I delete the raster image on the held job and re-rip to now show that CWS did use the "New Color Swatch" values.

    Again, regardless of someone's workflow both of these methods should work. The copy and paste saves someone a lot of time!

  10. #10
    adam1991 is offline Fiery Forum Expert Contributor adam1991 has proven very helpful adam1991 has proven very helpful adam1991 has proven very helpful adam1991 has proven very helpful adam1991 has proven very helpful
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    Well, it's working here just fine.

    KM IC-313 1.0, CWS 6.0.0.372.

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