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Thread: FOGRA52 on Ricoh 9110: Black fails. Special setting for 100K?

  1. #1
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    Default FOGRA52 on Ricoh 9110: Black fails. Special setting for 100K?

    Hi,

    So Im finally profiling for FOGRA51 and FOGRA52 on both our offset presses and Ricoh 9110s. The FMW3 report is looking *very* nice except for Black. It is visually way to dark and measures 21,5 / 0,34 / -0,52 and gives a dE2000 of 8,49.

    Is there a setting in Command Workstation to preserve black for being converted to the wanted simulation profile?

    Attached report...
    I need to figure this out before I can go ahead and profile three papers on three different 9110s

    FOGRA 52 test-proofSIGN Certification.pdf

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    Default RE: FOGRA52 on Ricoh 9110: Black fails. Special setting for 100K?

    Hi Lars.

    The Fiery has a setting to print grays using black only so that users do not get charges a color click charge for what looks like a grayscale page.

    In color setting of CWS 5 Job Properties, this section is called "Gray" and there are separate controls for RGB and CMYK. If you are running CWS 6 you'll see it is actually called "Print RGB gray using black only" and "Print CMYK gray using black only".

    In either case, we recommend setting the CMYK setting to "Text/Graphics/Images" for production workflows. This keeps all the black and white pages printing K only with K only click charge. For verification workflows, you need to disable this for CMYK or set it to "Text/Graphics" so that the images (your color control bars and other patch targets) are printed in full color and can match the production references for conventional presses.

    ~Lou

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    Default JP Screen shots of Black-Gray controls

    Screen shots from JP

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  4. #4
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    Thank you Lou an JP...

    That makes sense for a gray output, yet no sense if you are to print colors.

    What would be the right setting when creating a profile then? OFF? (convert black/gray to output profile). And create a special workflow for Grayscale output?

    This would lead to accurate blacks and some unfortunately CMYK click charges if there was a black only page somewhere in the CMYK job.


    Anyways..I have now done 2 of 3 machines. They all score very well compared to FOGRA51/52 except for FOGRA52 on one of the machines. I have done the profile twice now with the same bad results. The colors look dull and the report measures as attached.

    Any idea why? I can not go furtherRicoh 9110-03 - Scandia FOGRA52-proofSIGN Certification.pdf with this.

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    Default RE: FOGRA52 on Ricoh 9110: Black fails. Special setting for 100K?

    Coming back to this. Did setting Gray for CMY to Text/Graphics (or off) get the verification to work?

    As for making profiles I think we override this if you are using CPS to profile but the setting should also be Text/Graphics or Off for CMYK Gray.

    As for the 100% no settings change is needed, we only do "pure K" (K only) for 100% black text and graphics never for images.

    ~Lou

  6. #6
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    Hi Lou,

    It all worked out. Thee must have been som kind of bug as the profile somehow was not used.
    I printed again and everything was OK.
    --------

    Now one more issue/question:

    Everything is now based on M1 measurements. Recalibration does not seem to honor this. It only asks me to measures the strips once (one way).
    Is not the M1 option saved to the calibration set?
    Last edited by larsj; 08-17-2017 at 04:30 AM.

  7. #7
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    Default RE: FOGRA52 on Ricoh 9110: Black fails. Special setting for 100K?

    Hi Lars. Good question.

    Fiery uses density based calibration so the measurement mode has no bearing on the results. You can calibrate a Fiery with an M1 capable instrument such as ES-2000 or with a legacy ES-1000 that was M2 only and still get the same re-calibration results.

    They way the UV filter (or non-UV illuminated measurement in modern instruments) cuts off the UV end of the spectrum does not influence the density measurements of the calibration patches.

    ~Lou

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    Default

    Thank you Lou. That makes sence, but how come M1 is used for creating the calibration set then?

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    Default RE: FOGRA52 on Ricoh 9110: Black fails. Special setting for 100K?

    Hi Lars.

    The calibration is measured M0 (single pass). You want to use M1 for the profiling measurements if you really want to match color against ISO standards. You can also make M0 profiles, lots of people do this since it's faster but color matching in a D50 light booth will not be as good.

    ~Lou

  10. #10
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    Hi Lou,

    Coming back to this...

    Now as we convert Black/gray to CMYK we no longer see the grainy/bad grays. This is good, but keeping a neutral gray is not that easy any more. This is off course affected by the GCR settings in the output profile. It seems we often get color tints in the highlight areas. Do you have any recommended settings for keeping a steady gray balance and at the same time nice vivid colors?

    Attached profiles so you can see what settings we use today

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/arcagjhli8...Arkiv.zip?dl=0
    Last edited by larsj; 11-02-2017 at 12:05 AM.

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