+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 12

Thread: Best way to Manage ICC's For many paper stocks.

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jul 2016
    Posts
    27

    Default Best way to Manage ICC's For many paper stocks.

    Hi There,

    The company I work for provides a wide variety of digital stocks (30-40 plus a dozen or so compatible offset stocks) I've created calibration sets for the most commonly used papers (almost 30) But we all know: a profile's accuracy changes slightly with the machine's condition and paper lots, so over time the profiles need to be redone.

    Not only do I think this may not be the best way to do things, I just don't have the time to be constantly rebuilding icc's on a regular basis to achieve the 'best' results all the time. So I'm looking for a better way.

    I'm thinking of reducing my icc's to paper weight & coating and then build a device link for each matching stock. (e.g.. I'd use x1 icc for all my 80# plain covers and then have a device link for my Finch, Cougar & Soporset paper stocks) I'm thinking itinerating a device link every now and then will be faster then constantly re-profiling, but I'm not sure if this is how device link is intended to be used or if it will work this way at all?

    Any suggestion on whether I'm barking up the right tree would be great? Or recommendations from what other people are doing when faced with this many stocks and a demand for consistant colour accuracy?

    Thanks in advance

  2. #2
    adam1991 is offline Fiery Forum Expert Contributor adam1991 is working their way up in the world
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    997

    Default

    I honestly don't think device link profiles is what you're looking for. They have a purpose in life, but general shop work isn't it.

    You're focusing too hard on the "iteration now and then is quick and easy" but you're ignoring the core functionality of the device link, which hard codes too many things together. I don't think it's the right tool for the job.

    I think that you'd be well served by simple calibration sets unique to each paper. Make a single "plain cover" profile as you say, but create calibration sets for each stock, sets that use that plain cover profile.

    It really depends on what "good" looks like to you.

    Frankly, I dispute your core assumption that "profiles need to be redone". I understand paper lots changing, but a good machine will manage itself to present a consistent face to the outside world (it will manage itself well with regard to producing accurate AND consistent ink density on the sheet) and that takes away your concern about machine condition.

    For complete accuracy, take the time to create custom profiles for each stock, and then use the Fiery calibration system to keep them in check.

    Even if you did end up re-creating profiles, how often would you do that? Yearly? Twice a year? Yes, that's a concern--but with a modern autoscan spectro such as the KM FD-9, creating a very good profile can be as simple as using CPS's Express Profile feature. I call it "7 sheets of paper and a cup of coffee". 10-15 minutes and you're done. And once the profile patches are printed out, the press can go back to production while CPS does its thing.

    Assuming worst case of 30 profiles twice a year, spread out during production using an autoscan spectro--that's quick and easy for what you get. But yes, it is a lot of work.

    The real question is, do you need to do that for what your shop is expected to deliver? Or will simple calibration sets using one or two basic profiles do the job for you?

    You can test all of this using Verifier.

  3. #3
    oxident is offline Fiery Forum Expert Contributor oxident is on a distinguished path
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    600

    Default

    Very well explained. I totally agree!
    In my experience, you could also skip the different calibration sets for different stock (of same coating) but yes, this depends on your needs. For me, that's sufficient.
    IC-306 v3.01 FS100 Pro / KM C6000, IC-308 v2.1 FS150 Pro / KM C71hc / SD-513, IC-414 / KM C754
    CWS 5.8 SP2, Windows 10 x64

  4. #4
    adam1991 is offline Fiery Forum Expert Contributor adam1991 is working their way up in the world
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    997

    Default

    yes, absolutely. It's a continuum of degrees of acceptability. Everyone's needs are different. All you can do is start at the bottom, create procedures and apply them consistently, and if they're not enough then go to the next level and keep doing that until you're happy.

    Many people start with coated/uncoated custom profile/calibration sets, using good stocks, and never go further.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jul 2016
    Posts
    27

    Default Thanks

    Thanks for the info,

    I think you cleared up a few misconceptions I've had about profile management.

    Currently I do have profiles for each stock, as I was having a problem with Cool & Warm white-points with various papers stocks causing unwanted colour shifts when printing unsaturated colours. I also notice density / colour changes with different weighted stocks using the same icc. This was my reasoning for profiling each stock. I was also told some shops rebuild their profiles with every lot# change or major servicing of the machine, this seemed overkill but I was hoping to find a happy middle.

    I think your suggestion of Calibration sets for less profiles is a good way to go. I didn't even know that was an option or am I misunderstanding you. Are you suggesting create a profile on a stock (e.g.. Plain_Cougar Paper) and then just calibrate on any Cougar paper I load (text or cover) or is there and option to choose different calibration sets when I calibrate and icc for a stock. If the later, how do I do this or where can I find the info to do it?

    As for my shop's expectations, it varies with every customer (and salesperson) sometimes they're easy going and sometimes highly demanding. As a result I aim to hit a bullseye on each job to not risk orders coming back to me. So my intention is a workflow that gives consistent and accurate colour but can be maintained easily without cutting into production time.

    Thanks again for the reply

  6. #6
    adam1991 is offline Fiery Forum Expert Contributor adam1991 is working their way up in the world
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    997

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Troy76 View Post
    I also notice density / colour changes with different weighted stocks using the same icc.
    Yep. Expected.

    Quote Originally Posted by Troy76 View Post
    I think your suggestion of Calibration sets for less profiles is a good way to go. I didn't even know that was an option or am I misunderstanding you. Are you suggesting create a profile on a stock (e.g.. Plain_Cougar Paper) and then just calibrate on any Cougar paper I load (text or cover) or is there and option to choose different calibration sets when I calibrate and icc for a stock. If the later, how do I do this or where can I find the info to do it?
    You could do your first idea, but that gets in the way of a media driven workflow where a job might call for two similar stocks that you really want differentiated.

    Do you know how to create a new calibration? Do that--and at the very end of the process, Calibrator asks you to associate the calibration with an underlying output profile. You can create a custom one, or you can choose an existing profile that's on your system.

    There. Now you have one profile that is underlying a wide variety of stocks, each with its own calibration. It's very similar to what you're doing today, but without having dozens of unique output profiles. Instead, you might have a small handful. Coated cover, coated text, uncoated cover, uncoated text. Make 4 custom profiles, then using Calibrator create individual stock calibrations that each calls one of those 4.

    Quote Originally Posted by Troy76 View Post
    As for my shop's expectations, it varies with every customer (and salesperson) sometimes they're easy going and sometimes highly demanding. As a result I aim to hit a bullseye on each job to not risk orders coming back to me. So my intention is a workflow that gives consistent and accurate colour but can be maintained easily without cutting into production time.
    Honestly, given that you will have to satisfy a demanding customer and that you want to hit the bullseye every time, you want unique custom output profiles per stock like you have today.

    To get rid of your anxiety about managing them all, find out how your press works with regard to managing a consistent and accurate ink density across time. (It may not be able to do that. What press do you work with?) If your press can present accurate densities on paper and do it consistently, and can measure and adjust itself automatically on this basis, then you have no worries about machine aging--because the machine is maintaining itself in this regard, and it's presenting a consistent face to the outside world, to the Fiery that's running it. As long as the machine is consistent this way, your profiles won't age nearly like what you're thinking.

    If your press struggles to provide consistent ink densities across time, you'll have to figure out what compromises you want to make with regard to hitting that bullseye.

    And if you use a quality paper vendor/manufacturer, I think the paper lot thing is overblown. Not that it isn't an issue; sure, when you buy on price alone you get what you get. Me, I'm too poor to buy cheap. Buy quality paper from a quality vendor, and eliminate the worry. Now all you have to worry about is your press and its abilities.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jul 2016
    Posts
    27

    Default Thanks Again

    You're just filled with good info... thanks.

    I don't think I've created multiple calibrations for one profile before. I have noticed if I alter a profile in editor and re-save it, it creates a new icc & calibration linked to the original profile. Is this what you're talking about? or is there a better way of doing this?

    I was also thinking there may be a way in Editor to compensate for any potential tonal differences among stocks with each new calibration, but all the editing options I see, seem to involve eyeballing (which I try to avoid as eyeballing usually works on a job per job basis) and there seems to be a lack of tutorials on that part of Profiler Suite. Is this worth looking in to?

    As for my machine: it's a Ricoh Pro 7110x. Maintaining the density levels on it used to be really bad and I often called it a lemon but since I started following the maintenance schedule I came up with a year ago, it maintains really well now and I'm getting near press quality. This is probably why when I did test yesterday varifying an icc on different stocks (using same calibration set) I only averaged 1 off on the DeltaE, where as 1-1/2 years ago I averaged 7-8. But this may not hold true on all stocks which is why if there is a way to compensate for bigger shifts in Editor I'd like to know. But if the stocks only vary 1-4 points off, I think that is more than acceptable.

    Thanks again for the time you've spent, it's been very VERY helpful.

  8. #8
    adam1991 is offline Fiery Forum Expert Contributor adam1991 is working their way up in the world
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    997

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Troy76 View Post
    You're just filled with good info... thanks.

    I don't think I've created multiple calibrations for one profile before. I have noticed if I alter a profile in editor and re-save it, it creates a new icc & calibration linked to the original profile. Is this what you're talking about?
    No.

    Just start by creating a new calibration in Calibrator. At the very end of the process, it asks you to associate that calibration with a profile. Choose a profile. That's it. Now yoiu have a new "calibration set," which is nothing more than the calibration info and requirements bolted on top of a copy of the profile you chose.

    So the calibration MUST be associated with an output profiles, but you get to choose just which output profile that is. It can be: (a) a new one you created at the end of the "create a new calibration" process; (b) an existing custom profile that you've already created; or (c) an existing factory profile.




    Quote Originally Posted by Troy76 View Post
    I was also thinking there may be a way in Editor to compensate for any potential tonal differences among stocks with each new calibration, but all the editing options I see, seem to involve eyeballing (which I try to avoid as eyeballing usually works on a job per job basis) and there seems to be a lack of tutorials on that part of Profiler Suite. Is this worth looking in to?
    At this point, you're going down a DEEP rabbit hole with very little return on investment--and you are WAY better off, from both a time AND accuracy standpoint, just making a custom profile for each stock type (brand, model, coating, weight) like you talked about at the beginning.

    Question: is there anyone at your vendor who can discuss this with you?

  9. #9
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Foster City, CA
    Posts
    60

    Default One Calibration - Many profiles - not the other way

    At a minimum, every profile must be associated to 1 calibration.
    You can use the same calibration for many profiles.
    You can't (without creating duplicate profiles) create many calibrations for 1 profile.

    This thread is interesting.

    The strength of the Fiery is its flexibility - and I love in the world of color how there are many ways to achieve your goals - and just as many ways to go wrong.

    Justin

  10. #10
    adam1991 is offline Fiery Forum Expert Contributor adam1991 is working their way up in the world
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    997

    Default

    Yes. Many, many paths to achieve a goal. That comes from a depth of engineering talent.

    But that sometimes comes back to bite you. I always say the best thing about EFI is that they have twelve different engineering teams. And the worst thing about EFI is that they have twelve different engineering teams.

    But I have to say, within the context of this thread, CPS and Fiery together make it super easy to just do the right thing--custom profile to the depth you think is important, and assign those calibration sets to whatever paper catalog entries you need.

    But an autoscan spectro is the cherry on top of all that. I wouldn't approach CPS in anger without an autoscan spectro.

+ Reply to Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts