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Thread: Advice: KM C2070 or C71hc?

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    oxident is offline Fiery Forum Expert Contributor oxident is on a distinguished path
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    Question Advice: KM C2070 or C71hc?

    Hi!
    I'm facing the decision of buying a new printer to replace our C6000 (IC306). Can someone help me deciding whether to choose a recent C2070 or a C71hc, both equipped with an external Fiery. Main use is everyday print shop needs ;-)

    The C2070 is newer and has a nice scanner, I know, but the high chroma gammut of the C71hc sounds interesting. Are there any noticeable drawbacks regarding this toner?

    Thanks for any opinion!
    IC-306 v3.01 FS100 Pro / KM C6000, IC-308 v2.1 FS150 Pro / KM C71hc / SD-513, IC-414 / KM C754
    CWS 5.8 SP2, Windows 10 x64

  2. #2
    adam1991 is offline Fiery Forum Expert Contributor adam1991 has proven very helpful adam1991 has proven very helpful adam1991 has proven very helpful adam1991 has proven very helpful adam1991 has proven very helpful
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    Um, the HC toners are really intended to reproduce monitor-like vivid colors from the sRGB space, which common CMYK printers can't do. For digital photos, it's great. And I imagine those highly saturated PowerPoint colors would also do well. It is all about vivid saturation and matching the monitor for photos and presentations.

    Vivid designs, illustrations, packaging are also great uses for it.

    It's a larger gamut than CMYK, but it's not a direct overlap. The non-HC toners can reproduce some CMYK colors that the HC cannot. However, the number of those colors that you lose from the regular machine's gamut might be small enough for you to get away with. It's all about tradeoff: the large expansion of the reds/purples/oranges in the HC toner might be well worth the smaller loss of the extreme yellows and blues that only the non-HC toner can offer.

    If you can get some sample output profiles from each machine, you can compare the gamuts.

    For general commercial print shop use, integrating it into your standard press environment, you have some decisions to make. The primary question is, can it be set up to work satisfactorily enough to the same standards your current offset or other digital presses are using (GRACoL, etc.)?

    I would absolutely use it as a photobook and PowerPoint printer. Would I use it in a general commercial print application? Probably not if that were my sole requirement, but if it were in as a photobook printer and I had to do some general work on it, yes. I would be careful to manage the color appropriately, of course.

    See if, using your shop's workflow, you can generate some samples of your own to print from a wide variety of applications. And be aware of that workflow--for example, the HC toner won't do you any good if you or your customers blindly transform everything to CMYK first.

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    oxident is offline Fiery Forum Expert Contributor oxident is on a distinguished path
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    Thanks adam for this detailed*overview.*You've written a lot of interesting things regard this decision.

    If I understood you correctly, the*HC versions work great for*jobs which are either totally or*"more or less" prepared for professional printing but they might*get lost if dealing with*professional artwork.

    My KM dealer already gave me a few prints made with*a C1070 and a C71hc in order to compare to results. Those prints are, of course,*full bleed photographs,*shot and retouched by professionals.*My personal opinion is that most (but not all) of them look better on the*HC machine.

    As I*can't really*say that photobooks or photographs in general are a huge part of my daily business, the decision is a real tough one.

    But*I do know for sure that a lot of jobs I'll print are*assembled*using InDesign or Illustrator and my customers often*start designing*using a CMYK workflow (mostly ISO Coated) and therefore they'll loose a lot of "vividness" already at the time they'll start their layout.

    Would you say that "artificial" artwork (like*architectural drawings,*3D renderings or general line-art) would suffer a lot when using HC toner?
    IC-306 v3.01 FS100 Pro / KM C6000, IC-308 v2.1 FS150 Pro / KM C71hc / SD-513, IC-414 / KM C754
    CWS 5.8 SP2, Windows 10 x64

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    adam1991 is offline Fiery Forum Expert Contributor adam1991 has proven very helpful adam1991 has proven very helpful adam1991 has proven very helpful adam1991 has proven very helpful adam1991 has proven very helpful
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    Find the output profiles and compare the gamuts. While I wouldn't necessarily say that anything would "suffer a lot" with the HC, that judgment is entirely up to the end user or the customer and will depend on the source material.

    The HC gamut was designed around photobooks, being printed from RGB source material. If your source material is not sRGB, you're not taking advantage of the gamut. Is it a good enough gamut if you're not starting with sRGB? That's for you to test. Get the output profiles and look at the gamuts.

    Sorry, I'm not sure what you mean by this:

    "If I understood you correctly, the*HC versions work great for*jobs which are either totally or*"more or less" prepared for professional printing but they might*get lost if dealing with*professional artwork."

    so I can't comment on it.

    But ponder for a moment your comment that you thought that not all vendor-supplied photos looked better on the HC. While that could be operator error, it could also be that the regular inks on a well-managed machine do a superb job to begin with, good enough for your needs.

    But remember, the inks are different with different gamuts. The clear answer is to buy one of each.

  5. #5
    oxident is offline Fiery Forum Expert Contributor oxident is on a distinguished path
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    Quote Originally Posted by adam1991 View Post
    Find the output profiles and compare the gamuts. While I wouldn't necessarily say that anything would "suffer a lot" with the HC, that judgment is entirely up to the end user or the customer and will depend on the source material.
    ...
    But remember, the inks are different with different gamuts. The clear answer is to buy one of each.
    Yes, I see you've clearly identified my problem

    I do have*quite a lot of experience with non-HC devices*and their gammut. Maybe that's why**I* would tend slightly more to buy a non-HC printer again. But when looking at my*little questionaire, done with people who are mainly*consumers, they would clearly prefer the HC versions of the demo prints.

    The HC gamut was designed around photobooks, being printed from RGB source material. If your source material is not sRGB, you're not taking advantage of the gamut. Is it a good enough gamut if you're not starting with sRGB? That's for you to test. Get the output profiles and look at the gamuts.
    I would definitely say, most of my jobs*are mixed PDFs, containing sRGB/AdobeRGB or DeviceRGB images as well as CMYK artwork. Sometimes even "blindly"*saved as PDF/X

    So I'm*actually*in need of a swiss army knife...

    "If I understood you correctly, the*HC versions work great for*jobs which are either totally or*"more or less" prepared for professional printing but they might*get lost if dealing with*professional artwork."
    Sorry be being a little bit confusing. I've meant that it looks to me that print jobs, prepared by inexperienced customers (e.g. Office documents with some photos, simply*saved as PDF)*are looking great on a HC printer while*documents produced by professional designers (InDesign PDFs, converted to CMYK using ICC profiles) might look better on non-HC printers.

    But ponder for a moment your comment that you thought that not all vendor-supplied photos looked better on the HC. While that could be operator error, it could also be that the regular inks on a well-managed machine do a superb job to begin with, good enough for your needs
    True ... without any comment!*
    IC-306 v3.01 FS100 Pro / KM C6000, IC-308 v2.1 FS150 Pro / KM C71hc / SD-513, IC-414 / KM C754
    CWS 5.8 SP2, Windows 10 x64

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    adam1991 is offline Fiery Forum Expert Contributor adam1991 has proven very helpful adam1991 has proven very helpful adam1991 has proven very helpful adam1991 has proven very helpful adam1991 has proven very helpful
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    I think your needs would be well served by either press, properly color managed. Your problem now is that with every print from here on out for the rest of your life, you'll wonder what color range you're missing!

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    oxident is offline Fiery Forum Expert Contributor oxident is on a distinguished path
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    Quote Originally Posted by adam1991 View Post
    Your problem now is that with every print from here on out for the rest of your life, you'll wonder what color range you're missing!
    Yes, that's my problem since 1995
    IC-306 v3.01 FS100 Pro / KM C6000, IC-308 v2.1 FS150 Pro / KM C71hc / SD-513, IC-414 / KM C754
    CWS 5.8 SP2, Windows 10 x64

  8. #8
    borgwarrior is offline Senior Fiery Forum Contributor borgwarrior is on a distinguished path
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    just selled my 70HC after 6 years, and ~300k prints, and 6000 before buying a 2060.

    you simply cannot reproduce a range of colors, exactly because the HC toner, and the fact that its gamut is way different then the "normal" cymk.

  9. #9
    oxident is offline Fiery Forum Expert Contributor oxident is on a distinguished path
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    Interesting point. KM told me that the 71hc does this a little bit better and that the gammut is nearly overlapping completely (extreme yellow and cyan seems to make the difference).

    Anyway, as it's always exciting to try out new paths in our business, I've just ordered the 71hc and hope to get over the next five years ;-)
    IC-306 v3.01 FS100 Pro / KM C6000, IC-308 v2.1 FS150 Pro / KM C71hc / SD-513, IC-414 / KM C754
    CWS 5.8 SP2, Windows 10 x64

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