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Thread: Custom Output Profiles

  1. #1
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    Default Custom Output Profiles

    Hi everybody

    I am working color management more than 10 years. Recently, with some older versions on Fiery I created custom Output Profile by changing Density and Curves. Then Calibrate desired paper associate with that output profile.
    We bought new Fiery MPC 3003, E-22c with FS100 software version. Edit Output Profiles is not possible anymore, and specially calibration.
    I am using Colorcal for calibration.

    Please help

  2. #2
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    Default Color Editor

    Are you missing curve edits? or are you missing editing the calibration target Maximum Density?

    Curve edits to source and output profiles are available in Device Center -> Resources -> Profiles -> (Select a profile) and click the Edit button.

    Calibration Maximum Density target edits are only available when creating a new calibration in Device Center -> Tools-> Calibration -> Manage -> Create new... If you follow the workflow until you get to the step "Calibration setting "your calibration" has been created" - you will see a "View Measurements" button, which will take you to a graph of the measurements and targets. The targets will be editable. After saving the changes, you can then continue to creating a profile, or using the calibration associated to a copy of the select profile.

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  3. #3
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    Default

    Thanks for fast reply.

    But this is not what I meant.
    I know how to change Curves. But I want to change Max density too. That is cancelled in new version.
    I copied original Output Profile and try to change Max Density and option don't exist any more.

    Also Calibrator you show in massage nor appear as it is.

    Please advice

  4. #4
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    Default

    Name:  Screen Shot 2016-06-17 at 11.58.54 AM.png
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    This is what I have to change. This is old version of Color Editor.

  5. #5
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    Default

    Correct - on older servers you edit %density targets at the output profile - as the Calibration targets were stored in the output profile.
    Newer servers you change the calibration targets in the calibration settings, as the calibration target location has been moved out of the profile. This was a system level change made as of Fiery System version 10/10e

    Note: On newer servers, this edit can only be done creating new calibrations. You cannot edit existing calibrations.

    Thank you
    Justin
    Last edited by Justin_dB; 06-17-2016 at 09:58 AM.

  6. #6
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    Default

    Then question is:

    1. How to do any other calibration with colorcal , associate with other papers than normal?
    2. How to create or change max density in newer version?

    and very important

    If I can't do any of this, what would be a reason to buy Fiery?

  7. #7
    kmbs-dcd is offline Fiery Forum Expert Contributor kmbs-dcd is on a distinguished path
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    Default DMax is a machine condition, not a Fiery setting

    Max density is not the maximum density the Fiery can print, it is the max density of toner your machine can put on paper for that toner. Its the Fiery's job to accurately ask your machine to do the right thing. It your machines job to do it.

    The ideal condition is that when your file asks for 100% magenta to be put on the paper, the Fiery asks your machine to put 100% magenta toner on the paper and this results in the machine placing a 100% magenta toner on the paper. There is a target color determined by the manufacturer as to what LAB values 100% toner coverage should yield. Putting more toner on the sheet after that can result in poor color output, and probably increased service activity.

    In order for the Fiery to be able to raise its DMax target and cause any change on the device, it has to have been artificially reducing its output all along, holding back on color just to give itself headroom should you actually want it to print correctly. On the other hand if your desire is to lower the DMax setting, this is easily within your reach by grabbing that top right corner in the graph display and dragging the 100% point down the bar by the desired amount.

    On production level equipment there is often a means to adjust the machine's max density, gamma etc for different stocks so that the color reproduction is accurate, while on office level equipment this is usually not the case.

  8. #8
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    Default

    Thanks for trying to explain to me what is Max density.

    But you talk about printers ability. And that is completely different.
    Every machine has his own MaxD. Measuring and adjusting density is not simple using the printer. Max density of the printer is just a limit that you can use as a start point.
    So changing density according to colors and paper type is very important for later accuracy and repeatability.

    And there is a reason using Fiery and creating Custom Output profiles.

    Without Custom Output Profile and controlling it, reason to use Fiery is meaningless.

    Fiery calibrations is procedure when Fiery measuring Max density of the printer and adjusting to Max density of the Output profile associate with paper type and other printer setting used at the moment you print calibration. And Curves is using to adjust nothing but gradation of each color (Linear is most used).
    Max Density of the Output profile has to be the same like Max Density of the printer or little bit lower, or whatever you want but not higher than is printer ability.
    If Max density of the Output profile is higher than Max Density of the printer, artificial adjusting coming and you lose accuracy of the repeatability and continuos quality.

    If you are use only one Output profile for all papers type and settings without possibility to changing it and use only curves to adjust something what is not adjustable you can forget for quality that Fiery can give you.

    Exactly that I explained in previous text, that in the previous Fiery software you can easily adjust all of this very easy with ColorCal (Kodak tiffen card) and later create ICC color profiles and use it properly.

    I know how that works very good. Working in graphic industry 20 years. I am just wondering why they change Workflow for Calibration and Create or Change Output profile for desired one.

    Really without all of this using Fiery is meaningless. If I can't change and create Output profiles, then I don't need Fiery. I can use only simple Printer controller.

    Also price for the Fiery is not low.

    I'll be glad if someone explain to me how to do it.

    I have Ricoh MPC 3003, Fiery E-22c, and using ColorCal for calibration.

    Thanks in advance

  9. #9
    adam1991 is offline Fiery Forum Expert Contributor adam1991 has proven very helpful adam1991 has proven very helpful adam1991 has proven very helpful adam1991 has proven very helpful adam1991 has proven very helpful
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Migraf_K View Post
    Measuring and adjusting density is not simple using the printer.
    Maybe on your printer, but that's not the case at all with other printers.

    KM, for example, does a fantastic job with that.

    The idea is to set the printer up for itself: linearize the press on a baseline stock, for which the desired density values are known.

    From there, other stocks will get what they get--and profiling will manage color correctness.

    So changing density according to colors and paper type is very important for later accuracy and repeatability.
    I think this is where you went astray. The press, once linearized, will in fact show different results on different papers--for example, density levels on an offset uncoated sheet will never approach what the press can deliver on a digital coated sheet. And no amount of telling the calibration to do something different will change any of that.

    The press can't put down more than what it is set to put down.

    What you want to do is get the press itself in a stable, known, and repeatable state. Period. Profile/calibration sets will take it from there to tune the gray response and the accuracy.

    If the press can't get and keep itself in a stable, known, and repeatable state, then I agree you're going to struggle to get accurate, predictable, and repeatable color from it regardless of what you do with the Fiery.

    Press ilnearization is outside of, and separate from, the Fiery. And press linearization has to happen first, before you present the press to the Fiery and/or EFI Color Profiler.

  10. #10
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    Default

    I understand what you talking about. And I know this very good. I don't need lessons for this.
    Please dont't go far from this thread. Let stop this discussion and I will repeat what I need actually and why I post this.

    Simple procedure from older version of Fiery software up to 10e:

    1. Create Custom Output Profile, or change existing one (Max Density settings, not curve)
    2. Calibrate with ColorCal using this Output Profile associate with one paper type

    I bought Fiery E-22c, with new software version FS100, and of course I didn't expect to face with this kind of problem.


    I need solution fast as possible.

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