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Thread: Transfering Spot colors from one profile to another

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    StarDigital is offline Fiery Forum Expert Contributor StarDigital is on a distinguished path
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    Default Transfering Spot colors from one profile to another

    I'm wondering if there is a way to transfer the spot color/PANTONE modifications from one output profile to another on a large scale, rather than one by one. For instance i have a spot that is 10% of Reflex blue U it is perfect but i created a new express profile to get my colors back in line (age and parts replacements) when just calibrating doesn't work, also my black level was too high in shadows. I now want those colors to match to the new profile. Anyone know if there is a way to do this? Should it be a feature request item?

    Dan

  2. #2
    adam1991 is offline Fiery Forum Expert Contributor adam1991 has proven very helpful adam1991 has proven very helpful adam1991 has proven very helpful adam1991 has proven very helpful adam1991 has proven very helpful
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    Spot (named) colors should be defined as L*a*b* values.

    Then, each time that color is called, those values are run through the current profile and converted to engine-specific CMYK.

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    StarDigital is offline Fiery Forum Expert Contributor StarDigital is on a distinguished path
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    not what i'm asking. What i want to do i copy the CMYK values of every spot color in a color group for a paper profile and transfer that to a new profile so that the values are in place properly, all adjustments are transfered.

    dan

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    ColorQA_Victor is offline Senior Fiery Forum Contributor ColorQA_Victor is on a distinguished path
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    You bring up a valid point in my opinion. I can see the dynamic when you have a set of colors you have modified to meet your desired target that are far outside the targeted Lab and have to modify again when creating a new profile to respond to your printer's current state.

    Just off the top of my head would something like this work for you:

    - Open Spot-On with the targeted paper profile.
    - Modify your targeted Pantone spot color and note the converted Lab. (Example: PANTONE+ Solid Uncoated > PANTONE Reflex Blue U)
    - Create a custom spot color group and create a custom color based on the targeted Pantone color. (Example: [CUSTOM GROUP NAME] > PANTONE Reflex Blue U)
    - In the New Spot Color UI, enter the converted Lab from the second step into the Original Lab fields.

    Move this custom group to the top of the list so the Fiery can access the custom definition instead of the factory definition.

    You won't get a 1:1 CMYK transfer, but it should put you in the ballpark of the desired color you are after when importing or creating a new profile. If it works out,, then you won't have to manually modify the spot colors each time you profile. Is this a workaround that has potential for immediate results? Let me know if I'm missing or misunderstanding something.

    The ability to do this without this potential workaround is something for Lou to look at in my opinion. I'll see if I can bring this up to the team that works with how spot color CMYK values are generated.

    -victor
    Victor Ibarra
    Fiery Lead QA Engineer - Color & Imaging

  5. #5
    StarDigital is offline Fiery Forum Expert Contributor StarDigital is on a distinguished path
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    Thanx Victor

    That is a manual version of what i'm asking for. And its' approximately what i do anyway. What i'm looking for is a complete custom conversion. The program should know which PANTONEs where changed from the factory settings; when modifying it the 'reset to factory' shows up. You could then create a small program that copies the Lab values from one profile (modified PANTONEs and Spot colors) and apply them to another. The profile will then take the Lab values and convert them to the appropriate CMYK values for that profile. You should be able to select all or certain colors to do the conversion.

    Another thing, you could put a simpler version of this in the spot color edit screen. Give the user the option of transferring the new color to other paper profiles. For instance: i have a 10% of Reflex Blue. I use The original Reflex blue and duplicate it then take 10% of its values to achieve the desired color (or close enough). But when i go to other profiles that Spot still matches the original Reflex Blue, and i would have to color match again for that paper profile. So in the modified Paper profile spot color i would click the 'button' and select which paper profiles i would like to transfer the new Lab values to.

    Finally i noticed that the Lab values are not editable. Is it possible to do so?

    Dan

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    Hey, StarDigital: first, thank you for your frequent and valuable feedback. I want to let you know that your suggestions have been forwarded to the person in charge of revising Spot-On. Meanwhile, Victor's method is about the best you can do. You are right that the Lab for a color name cannot be edited. It can be assigned only once, when the color is created. So, for now, you can create a color group, create a color within that group, and assign it a Lab value that will be locked forever within that group. When your "new" color has the same name as an existing color, be extra careful to remember that the order color groups are displayed in Spot-On (Device Center>Resources>Spot-Colors) is the order in which individual color names are searched when processing jobs, from top to bottom. It can be very confusing to have two colors with the same name, but pointing to different Lab and CMYK values.

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    ColorQA_Victor is offline Senior Fiery Forum Contributor ColorQA_Victor is on a distinguished path
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    Thanks for the response Paul!
    Victor Ibarra
    Fiery Lead QA Engineer - Color & Imaging

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    kmbs-dcd is offline Fiery Forum Expert Contributor kmbs-dcd is on a distinguished path
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    One of the things that has long bugged me about spot on is it apparently knows that there is abetter match for the spot, but it makes you manually hunt and peck around to find it.

    For example - say I want to adjust PANTONE Yellow 021C. I have starting values 0,9,97,0 with a DeltaE of 21.26.

    Name:  Yellow 021C 0.jpg
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    So I open the editor, print and decide that the swatch with a mix of 0,0,97,0 is a better match and choose it.

    Name:  Yellow 021C 1.jpg
Views: 2513
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    Saving this I now see that sure enough the Fiery agrees I've made a good selection because now the DeltaE is 19.29.

    Name:  Yellow 021C 2.jpg
Views: 2660
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    Why make the user play hide and seek for the best match? Use that fancy color technology on the front end and choose it for me based on my output profile in the first place. I should only have to make manual adjustments if I want to choose a different color than the closest DeltaE match.

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    adam1991 is offline Fiery Forum Expert Contributor adam1991 has proven very helpful adam1991 has proven very helpful adam1991 has proven very helpful adam1991 has proven very helpful adam1991 has proven very helpful
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    I think you're missing something in the middle.

    On a system that's fully profiled, and where the output profile is used properly, you shouldn't be able to manually adjust anything to make it better.

    Pantone colors are stored by their Pantone-defined L*a*b* values. At print time, those are dynamically converted, by the output profile and calibration set, to engine-specific CMYK values. It's all in the math.

    That means that on a different stock, the Fiery will calculate different CMYK values.

    That also means that even on the same stock, a week from now, when the engine is 200K prints older and you've freshly calibrated that same stock (and generated different tone curves than last week), the Fiery will calculate (slightly) different CMYK values.

    What's missing here? What am I missing?

  10. #10
    StarDigital is offline Fiery Forum Expert Contributor StarDigital is on a distinguished path
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    I'll second all that.

    The key difference and the point I'm trying to make is how to transfer modified colors from one stock profile to another. I have plenty of customers that have colors they approved of that are slightly different than the stock PANTONEs. For instance Reflex blue is slightly purple, but i often have to change it to less purple for customers. Some like to create shades of PANTONEs incorrectly while naming them at 100% of that PANTONE (headache). Others (like greys and browns) are so difficult to accurately hit that i want to keep that color when i do hit it. Many of these have the same colors across different stocks that only want to match once.

    Dan

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