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Thread: Calibrating on different stocks

  1. #21
    adam1991 is offline Fiery Forum Expert Contributor adam1991 has proven very helpful adam1991 has proven very helpful adam1991 has proven very helpful adam1991 has proven very helpful adam1991 has proven very helpful
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lou_P View Post
    Adam is more expert on this than me but I think you could also have the KM tech set up all the CDC stuff for your common paper types when they install the machine, then you can just calibrate and profile with CPS and not even need colourcare measure. Doing the CDC setup is not for the faint of heart, you need to set density offset, do density balance, then set maximum density so the CDC can help keep things consistent. As far as I know you never need to re-do this though, so having the tech do it with their copy of colourcare once should cover you unless Adam tells us I'm wrong and that CDC needs to be re-configured over time.
    Once linearized, overall the press should keep on going in a suitable state. That's true even across PMs, as long as you don't delete the target CDC curves. The press will always aim to those curves that were built when the press was in good maintenance shape.

    However, as new drums go in the user might want to re-do density balance. That's a Color Care/spectro job.

    Frankly, the whole linearization process doesn't take very long at all--the longest part of it is scanning the density balance charts on an iSis or KM FD-9.

    One additional and completely optional part of the linearization process is creating custom CDC curves for particular stocks. If you're really really picky about color on those stocks (say, you have such a customer that uses those stocks), you'll use Color Care and a spectro to give the engine a much deeper knowledge of those stocks from the standpoint of ink density. But as I said that's optional. Overall, linearization is a setup procedure, and from then on it's a maintenance procedure only as you deem fit--or as color verification indicates.

    If verification show that you're hitting your targets (GRACoL, G7), then you're good to go. If you're not, you might recalibrate, reprofile, or relinearize depending on the circumstances that put you out of those tolerances.

    One note about CDC is it takes a lot of time. Most shops I visit have CDC disabled so they can get more jobs out the door. These folks just re-calibrate the Fiery.
    ???? It's automatic, and takes very little time. Periodically, as the press internally sees things it doesn't like, it will pause--"please wait, now adjusting". ALL digital presses do this. KM CDC is simply another brief process on top of that, printing out either three or 10 CDC pages to check on and validate those internal adjustments.

    Not sure what you mean about "takes a lot of time".

    Also: CDC ensures that the press is gray balanced, and consistently presents itself that way to the outside world. As you well know, that takes the gray balance load off of Fiery calibration and profiling, and lets those tools better do what they're supposed to do.

    On presses without CDC, calibration is a tool to chase after the varying engine and tell the RIP where it is--both the color and the gray status. That's a heavy load for such a simple tool, and many people find it necessary to calibrate multiple times a day, or during a long run. Why should the Fiery have to own that process if it doesn't have to?

    While you can't make a xerographic engine not vary over time or even during a single run, you can manage it on the engine such that the engine presents a uniform, gray balanced face to the outside world--to the Fiery--across time. IDC/CDC is such a tool. And while all engines do the equivalent of IDC, only KM to my knowledge does CDC automatically, no operator intervention necessary, and during a run. This makes calibration and profiling MUCH more precise.

    As you point out, the only other tool for managing the shifting engine response is calibration. That requires manually stopping the press. It requires knowing when to stop the press. And it takes more time than letting the press calibrate itself for its naturally shifting density response.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by GarethO View Post
    Thanks Lou, Yes I will get the tech to set up the CDC, but it will take time, and we can't have our only colour digital machine out of action for too long. Adam, is I think suggesting that it is handy, rather than essential to be able to do it yourself. It might be something I want to do at some stage, so I am seeing what options are included in our proposal.
    Yes. And it takes very little time, frankly. Much of it is setup; as I say, wouldn't you spend a little time up front setting things up so that you can keep running ongoing in a known, consistent manner?



    In terms of CDC being slow, do you mean that the ppm/pph count is reduced because of the extra time involved when the machine prints the adjustment pages and recalibrates itself? I understand that the frequency of this can be configured, any more info on this holding up production?
    Yeah, I'll be curious to see what he's heard on this.

    My understanding is this (for KM with CDC):

    CDC (via Colour Care or X-rite Profilemaker) calibrates the engine linearisation per stock.
    CPS calibration, calibrates the Fiery linearisation per stock and ties it to an output ICC for the same stock.
    CWS calibration updates the CPS stock profile set with more recent data.

    Is there a chance the CDC calibration and CPS calibration would not line up or conflict?
    CDC calibration and CPS calibration don't conflict in any way. The goal of modern KM engines with inline densitometers is to have them manage themselves to produce consistent ink density--as I said before, just like an offset press operator does manually. And the goal of this is to gray balance the press, and automatically provide a consistent color reproduction to the outside world.

    The Fiery, with a profile/cal set, takes that information and runs with it. And the better that information is, the better of a job a profile/cal set can do for color accuracy.

    Proper and consistent ink densities, and a valid profile/cal set--you have to have them both if your goal is accuracy. With consistent ink densities happening on the engine, and stock-specific profiles made on that engine in your environment, you'll get accuracy that will give you a very much shared appearance across stocks, across time. That's a holy grail, and it's achievable--but only if all the right parts are in place and used properly.

    (By the way, when doing engine-specific measurements you can use Profilemaker to capture the measurements from whatever spectro you use. It's not the easiest or most straightforward thing to do; you're much better off using Color Care, either the engine-only Measure version or the full featured version.)
    Last edited by adam1991; 05-29-2016 at 07:56 PM.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by GarethO View Post
    If I needed to calibrate the C1060 without CPS, I assume I would need to calibrate using whatever stock was used to create the canned profiles, and I would be unable to create sets, is this correct?
    No and no.

    You calibrate using YOUR stock. At the end of the process, Calibrator says "you must attach this calibration to a profile" and it will offer one in the list. You may choose any canned profile from that list. (If you have CPS installed, you will have the option for creating a custom output profile.) It essentially copies that canned profile and bolts the calibration to it; this will create a new calibration set.

    If you choose a canned profile, generally one matching as much as possible the characteristics of the paper you're using to calibration (coated, uncoated, etc), your results won't be perfect--as you say, the underlying profile wasn't made from YOUR stock on YOUR engine in YOUR shop--but at least the calibration data will help because it is your stock.



    Also, is CPS licensed to a spectro AND a computer? Am I able to take an ES-2000 that is licensed for CPS 4.x on a system and use it fully featured on another system? If not, can I transfer it to the new system?
    The spectro is the license. It's a hardware dongle for CPS. Period. You may install CPS on whatever computers you want. It will run in demo mode until and unless you have the properly licensed spectro plugged in. Wherever the spectro is plugged in, if its license matches the version of CPS that's installed, you'll have access to all features of that version.

    So install CPS wherever you like, and simply move the spectro around as you need it.
    Last edited by adam1991; 05-29-2016 at 07:57 PM.

  4. #24
    GarethO is offline Senior Fiery Forum Contributor GarethO is on a distinguished path
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    Quote Originally Posted by adam1991 View Post
    Huh? The Daily Maintenance Guide clearly specifies the ES2000.
    The guide I linked to here clearly specifies on page 40 "Density Balance Adjustment (for i1Pro/i1Pro2/ES-1000/ES-2000) - To measure the chart, use the X-rite Measure tool" I assumed there is support for other (more labour intensive) measurement devices, but as it wan't in the manual I wanted to clarify. Can you link a more up to date manual?

  5. #25
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    Ah, I see what you're saying. That verbiage was taken from an old C8000 manual. Not sure why it's still in there, other than "here's the free method".

    Color Care and Color Care Measure support 5 spectros, and any of them can be used for both density balance and custom CDC measurement: KM FD5bt, KM FD9, X-Rite iSis XL, X-Rite i1 (EFI ES1000), and X-Rite i1 Pro (EFI ES2000). The FD9 and iSis XL can read more patches and will give more complete measurements to work with. Also, all of those spectros work with EFI CPS.

    Further, Color Care can send whatever density measurements you're reading and send them directly over the network to the print engine--no need for USB stick.

    And Color Care Measure is VERY inexpensive, from my knowledge. Check with your local vendor.

  6. #26
    GarethO is offline Senior Fiery Forum Contributor GarethO is on a distinguished path
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    Thanks, I will try and get it.

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