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Thread: Calibrating on different stocks

  1. #11
    adam1991 is offline Fiery Forum Expert Contributor adam1991 has proven very helpful adam1991 has proven very helpful adam1991 has proven very helpful adam1991 has proven very helpful adam1991 has proven very helpful
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    All valid concerns.

    Also of concern is the Versant's ILS, specifically in context of its single-point reading system. When profiling, it's best to gather a very wide range of patches from across the entire sheet (or even multiple sheets printed in multiple orientations). A profile target that repeats certain patches across the sheet that way will have better information with which to work.

    It's true that most people are more concerned about color consistency first, accuracy second as long as it's reasonable. Of the equipment you're looking at, it all falls into two categories--full production and very very light fleet-based production. Full production gear will hold up better and more easily deliver the consistency you're looking for.

    I also urge anyone in your situation to consider your support mechanism--who will service you at all levels, from sales to billing to technical service to workflow consulting.

    No matter what, get an autoscan spectro, a handheld spectro, and Color Profiler Suite (if you're getting a Fiery, it's the best choice) or similar to go with your system. If you get the KM C1060, make sure you get the relay unit with CDC, and get at least Color Care Measure software plus the full linearization training. (Also for best results get the vacuum-feed paper feed module.)

    For consistency, remember that only KM offers full automated in-run color density control to manage the engine's density response on the fly on your production stock. Think of it like automated ink keys on a press. It's even checking and adjusting for inboard/outboard density differences, or streaks.

    Ping me if you have any questions.

  2. #12
    GarethO is offline Senior Fiery Forum Contributor GarethO is on a distinguished path
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    Thanks Adam, From my understanding the Versant 80 uses an ILS, but the Versant 2100 uses a FWA, which is across the whole page, and on the fly.

    Xerox has far better online marketing than Konica, and I can find a lot of information on the net about the FWA, Konica's CDC on the other hand, has almost nothing.

    Can you explain exactly what the CDC does, I take it unlike the FWA it doesn't help with registration and skew.

    You recommend "get at least Color Care Measure software plus the full linearization training", given that we will get a fiery, is Colour Care Measure required? It looks to be the same as CPS. And what is the training?

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by GarethO View Post
    Paul_M - yes we are running system 9r2, and adam1991, we will most likely get FS150.

    Paul, I assume this is the procedure for doing what you described. Is there anywhere I can see some screen shots?
    Yes, this is the procedure if you have "Manage..." as a calibration set menu option. If it is not an option, this procedure does not apply. You must calibrate using a single paper, always the same, then profile each media separately. Profiles will automatically be associated with the single calibration.

    If you tell me your Canon printer model, I can check if the "Manage..." as a calibration menu option can be made available. Some systems can be configured for this, but to do so, you need to reinstall software. The printer model is displayed in CWS5 Device Center > General > General Info at the top line, between parentheses. Also listed after "PRINTER:" at the top right of the configuration page.

    You already got good advice on advantages of using paper catalog and options offered by more recent Fiery servers. Good luck!

  4. #14
    adam1991 is offline Fiery Forum Expert Contributor adam1991 has proven very helpful adam1991 has proven very helpful adam1991 has proven very helpful adam1991 has proven very helpful adam1991 has proven very helpful
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    Quote Originally Posted by GarethO View Post
    Can you explain exactly what the CDC does, I take it unlike the FWA it doesn't help with registration and skew.

    You recommend "get at least Color Care Measure software plus the full linearization training", given that we will get a fiery, is Colour Care Measure required? It looks to be the same as CPS. And what is the training?
    You're right, I was thinking Versant 80. 2100 uses FWA, which has issues of its own--it's an RGB sensor, like a scanner, which is different than something like the iSis or ES2000. And it requires unnatural gymnastics to create useful spectral data for profiling.

    KM's CDC is exactly what it says: Color Density Control. The basis of all consistent and accurate reproduction is consistent and accurate ink density on the sheet. Offset press operators know this, and live by it. They're always measuring the density of base colors on sheets as the press runs. KM does the same thing, using an automatic, full speed system. Once the machine is set up to produce accurate density results (either by a tech or by you, following the instructions), then CDC periodically checks those densities during a run. If they vary beyond specs, the machine will tweak itself.

    Actually, the base density check is called IDC--internal density control. It's checking patches on the transfer belt first. When those go beyond specs, the machine pauses printing--"please wait"--and adjusts itself to make those patches good. Every machine on the market does this. KM takes it a step further and checks the densities on your actual stock, on a fused and cooled sheet of paper. THAT'S what's relevant. What's happening inside the machine is an indicator, but what's happening on your sheet is a measurement of reality.

    It checks densities on your sheet, and if needed it will tweak things to produce correct densities until it has to do that again.

    This produces a stable machine without you having to do anything. It's automatic.

    If the machine is stable, then you get consistency--and then the Fiery profile is accurate therefore color will be accurate.

    This CDC also simultaneously checks density across the sheet, so it's doing double duty.

    The C1060 CDC does not check registration. That's done elsewhere inside the machine, sheet by sheet. It's wicked accurate and consistent. Each sheet behaves a little bit differently through the engine, so up front you have a chance to adjust how the engine treats that paper for skew and f/b alignment. Lock that adjustment into the paper catalog, and never worry about it again. The system is that good and consistent and repeatable.

    Color Care is a software suite by KM that does many things. The full Color Care overlaps with Fiery CPS, yes--but it has a couple of other features. They've broken out the KM engine-specific features into a limited version called Color Care Measure. This is the tool you use (in combination with a real spectro, be it handheld ES2000 or an autoscan unit like KM FD-9) to linearize the press, setting up inboard to outboard density evenness and helping to set up custom per-stock CDC (if you're wicked critical about color). Color Care measure is very very cheap--huge bang for the buck.

    KM offers lineariation training on this system, as well as a daily maintenance guide. The whole goal is to give you a complete package to help maintain evenness and create a stable press, so that you can get accurate color. On a C1060 that's linearized, I can hit GRACoL and G7 without breathing hard--that is, if I create custom output profiles with something like CPS. More importantly, I can maintain that level of accuracy with the press doing the heavy lifting of controlling ink density on the sheet, automatically.

    If the press can't control ink density properly, during a run like offset press operators do, all consistency bets are off.
    Last edited by adam1991; 05-25-2016 at 02:24 AM.

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    GarethO is offline Senior Fiery Forum Contributor GarethO is on a distinguished path
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    Thanks for going in depth Adam, very helpful info. I asked via post because I'm sure others will be curious too.

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    GarethO is offline Senior Fiery Forum Contributor GarethO is on a distinguished path
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    Adam, I have been looking at this .

    It looks as though Colour Care only works with the FD-5BT, and when using an ES-2000 I need to use this.

    Can you confirm whether Colour Care Measure works with an ES-2000?

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    Default RE: Calibrating on different stocks

    Hi, I've been monitoring this thread and have a few things that I think could be clarified for you.

    For your last question, not sure if colourcare supports I1, and even if it does I'm not sure it would work with ES-2000. Ask your KM rep to clarify this.

    X-Rite iSis is supported both by CPS and by colourcare, so that would solve that problem.

    Adam is more expert on this than me but I think you could also have the KM tech set up all the CDC stuff for your common paper types when they install the machine, then you can just calibrate and profile with CPS and not even need colourcare measure. Doing the CDC setup is not for the faint of heart, you need to set density offset, do density balance, then set maximum density so the CDC can help keep things consistent. As far as I know you never need to re-do this though, so having the tech do it with their copy of colourcare once should cover you unless Adam tells us I'm wrong and that CDC needs to be re-configured over time.

    One note about CDC is it takes a lot of time. Most shops I visit have CDC disabled so they can get more jobs out the door. These folks just re-calibrate the Fiery.

    Regarding re-calibration frequency, yes this needs done at least for your common paper types and unless you have the press in a humidity-controlled room it needs to be done at least daily.


    As Adam points out, if you want consistent color you want to make calibration sets and profiles for at least your common paper types using Fiery Color Profiler Suite. You probably also want a scanning spectro like iSis so that you are not measuring patches manually which is time consuming and also not as accurate unless you are really diligent in your hand measuring process.


    A note about auto-selecting calibration sets in Paper Catalog, I saw that you could not find this. Here's why: on the Fiery we link the calibration set to the profile it is meant to be used with. For instance if you make a new calibration set and profile for uncoated paper, in Paper Catalog you set the front profile / back profile, and if you choose the uncoated profile you made then that profile selects the calibration set it goes with. Factory profiles work the same way but they are not going to give you the best results since your press is a little different than all the other presses and since the humidity and temperature in your shop is not the same as it was at the factory when we made the factory profiles. If you calibrate and profile with CPS and you use paper catalog when doing it CPS will update the profiles in the paper catalog entries automatically.

    One last note if you want to "share" profiles and calibrations across multiple stocks then you need to make calibrations and profiles at least for uncoated, coated, and at least one gsm of heavy coated.

    Basically when the internal press settings change for a paper type that means it has different tonality and so needs a custom calibration and profile. Fuser temp goes up from uncoated to coated and both temp and print speed change as you go to heavier coated stocks. Ideally you'd make a profile for uncoated and then one for each coated paper weight range but at that point you might as well just profile the real stocks you use.

    If you do choose the sharing approach make sure to re-calibrate on the same stock you used to make the calibration set.

    I hope this helps clarify things a bit more for you, and I assume Adam will correct me about the frequency of needing to set up CDC on KM presses if I am wrong about that.

    There's a lot in my post so please feel free to come back with questions.

    ~Lou

  8. #18
    GarethO is offline Senior Fiery Forum Contributor GarethO is on a distinguished path
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lou_P View Post
    I think you could also have the KM tech set up all the CDC stuff for your common paper types when they install the machine, then you can just calibrate and profile with CPS and not even need colourcare measure... unless Adam tells us I'm wrong and that CDC needs to be re-configured over time.

    One note about CDC is it takes a lot of time. Most shops I visit have CDC disabled so they can get more jobs out the door. These folks just re-calibrate the Fiery.
    ~Lou
    Thanks Lou, Yes I will get the tech to set up the CDC, but it will take time, and we can't have our only colour digital machine out of action for too long. Adam, is I think suggesting that it is handy, rather than essential to be able to do it yourself. It might be something I want to do at some stage, so I am seeing what options are included in our proposal.

    In terms of CDC being slow, do you mean that the ppm/pph count is reduced because of the extra time involved when the machine prints the adjustment pages and recalibrates itself? I understand that the frequency of this can be configured, any more info on this holding up production?

    My understanding is this (for KM with CDC):

    CDC (via Colour Care or X-rite Profilemaker) calibrates the engine linearisation per stock.
    CPS calibration, calibrates the Fiery linearisation per stock and ties it to an output ICC for the same stock.
    CWS calibration updates the CPS stock profile set with more recent data.

    Is there a chance the CDC calibration and CPS calibration would not line up or conflict?

  9. #19
    GarethO is offline Senior Fiery Forum Contributor GarethO is on a distinguished path
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    If I needed to calibrate the C1060 without CPS, I assume I would need to calibrate using whatever stock was used to create the canned profiles, and I would be unable to create sets, is this correct?

    Also, is CPS licensed to a spectro AND a computer? Am I able to take an ES-2000 that is licensed for CPS 4.x on a system and use it fully featured on another system? If not, can I transfer it to the new system?

  10. #20
    adam1991 is offline Fiery Forum Expert Contributor adam1991 has proven very helpful adam1991 has proven very helpful adam1991 has proven very helpful adam1991 has proven very helpful adam1991 has proven very helpful
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    Quote Originally Posted by GarethO View Post
    Adam, I have been looking at this .

    It looks as though Colour Care only works with the FD-5BT, and when using an ES-2000 I need to use this.

    Can you confirm whether Colour Care Measure works with an ES-2000?
    Huh? The Daily Maintenance Guide clearly specifies the ES2000.

    Color Care Measure is the tool that allows you to do density balance (inboard-outboard evenness) and custom CDC measurements. While an autoscan spectro will measure more patches, the handheld ES2000 is fully supported for these purposes.

    Those are engine-specific, engine-only applications. Once the engine is sorted out and linearized, you can use any profiling package to help the RIP better understand the engine. EFI CPS is a superb package for this, not only in its raw capability but also its integration with the Fiery.

    ProfileMaker has been discontinued for some time. Where did you get the idea that you'd need that?

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