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Thread: Query regarding Calibration/Output Profiles on CWS / IC-308 / Konica 1085

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    Question Query regarding Calibration/Output Profiles on CWS / IC-308 / Konica 1085

    Greetings all,


    Firstly, here is some details of our system..
    CWS 5.7.0.29
    IC-308 v2 Upgrade
    FS150 Pro
    Konica Bizhub Press 1085


    Our current output profile setup is as follows:
    4 output profiles, for 4 media's = Satin, Gloss, Digital Uncoated, Offset Plain Paper


    Any given day i may print a handful of jobs on Satin paper, and calibrate to the Satin output profile. The paper weights may vary from job to job, but it is the same supply of Satin etc.

    What i was able to do is, for example, load 200g Satin and calibrate the Satin output profile using that stock. Then later in the day, or next day etc, i could load a 300g satin, and calibrate
    the Satin profile using that 300g stock. For me, it keeps things simple having one output profile for 1 family of paper (with various weights and sizes).


    This method of managing stocks, and output profiles had been working beautifully since we fired up the Fiery & 1085 in May this year.


    However, about 4 weeks ago, i lost the ability to use various weights (and sizes) to calibrate ther associated output profile. It appears that the calibration process will only allow the same
    media type/weight/size of stock that was initially used to create the output profile.
    For example, if my Satin output profile was created using 170g SRA3, and i load a 200g SRA3, the following error message occurs..


    "The Calibration Page did not Print. It may have been suspended or Cancelled. Check the Printing Queue, the Printed Queue, and Job Log"
    in the Printed queue, is a faulted calibration job, and when viewing the error associated is states, "Job Media is not associated with any tray".


    Also similarily, if i set a job to use a particular type of paper, and send the job to print, the job will fault to Printed Queue if that particular media isnt loaded on any tray. Previously the job
    would wait for the media requested by the job to be loaded, and then continue to print, or you could Force the job to print on an alternative loaded media.


    This may be co-incidental, but earlier that morning when these strange behavours began (November 17th), there was a handful of patches that were automatically updated.

    FIT101154223
    FIT101154252
    FIT101140311 <- this one was interesting as there was reference to "Paper Profile" in the patch summary.


    If anyone can shed some light, suggestions or recommendations, appreciation will be in abundance.


    Many thanks
    Damian.

  2. #2
    StarDigital is offline Fiery Forum Expert Contributor StarDigital is on a distinguished path
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    several questions:

    1: have you updated/patched anything? OS, server, CWS, etc.

    2: why are you using multiple calibrations on your printer? Just one should suffice for all white papers as long as all custom profiles were created with that one calibration set, they will all get 'updated' when you recalibrate with that paper. in device center - resources - profile - output profiles you will notice that they are linked to a calibration set. you can change this to any calibration set you have, even new ones you create. As the calibration set is there to adjust the calculations of the printer due to its changes that naturally occur you only need one for white paper.

    As for the printer not calibrating when you put in a different paper weight than when you first set it up, that is to be expected. You create a set on one paper the printer will expect that exact paper for when it recalibrates, else you could get inaccurate readings that will read as accurate.

    Dan

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    adam1991 is offline Fiery Forum Expert Contributor adam1991 has proven very helpful adam1991 has proven very helpful adam1991 has proven very helpful adam1991 has proven very helpful adam1991 has proven very helpful
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    well, let's start with this: the RIGHT way to do it is to have custom calibration/profile sets for each unique media.

    But many don't do that. So be it. Regardless, one single calibration isn't enough. Not at all. You've chosen a strategy: let one calibration set suffice for all satin stocks, and similarly have one for gloss, one for digital uncoated, and one for offset uncoated.

    White point is meaningful, but let's ignore that for the moment.

    The way Fiery calibration sets work, the behavior you now see is the expected behavior. I don't know how you previously got away with doing it otherwise, unless it was an error in Fiery programming--and it got fixed with one of those patches. (Wouldn't surprise me.) The way you set up a calibration set, you start by defining the paper--ideally using paper catalog, but at least using size/weight/type.

    And when you use that calibration set, you must use that paper catalog entry or that size/weight/type. Calibrator is not supposed to let you print on a text weight sheet using a cal set that was created using a cover weight, for example--even if they are both 12x18 satin. I honestly think that was a mistake if it did happen.

    So the fact that it's now forcing the expected behavior is a good thing. Above all, what you're looking for is consistency--not accuracy. If you were looking for accuracy and a shared image appearance across stocks, you would custom profile each media in your shop and create a calibration set with that profile.

    But you're not doing that. And I think that's OK.

    To get consistency, you define for your shop what four stocks will represent each calibration set--manufacturer, model of stock, even size--and you create the cal sets using those stocks and you use those each time you calibrate. Use the same stock every time, and get the same results every time.

    Then, in Fiery paper catalog, you assign all of your satin stocks to that one satin calibration set; you assign all of your gloss stocks to that one gloss calibration set; and so on.

    Then to calibrate your gloss stocks (for example) you use your defined reference stock that you chose for that calibration, and go about your day. Same with the other three.

    But to reiterate, the behavior you're seeing now is the correct and expected behavior. The behavior you saw previously was incorrect and not expected.

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    Thumbs up

    Thanks adam1991, my apologies for not replying much sooner, time has escaped me, and before I knew it, it was June!


    Having to switch out media to 1 specific stock for calibrating is a bit of a hassle, considering that (in my mind at least), the same paper across various weights should give you the same color representation. It would be handy to have the media weight and size flexible when calibrating, but it is what it is.


    Cheers,
    Damian

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    Doyle is offline Fiery Forum Expert Contributor Doyle is on a distinguished path
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    If you use FCP to do your calibrations you can use what ever stock you want. Maybe not a good thing but if you originally calibrated on 11 x 17 and now have 13 x 19 loaded you can choose to calibrate on the 13 x 19.

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    StarDigital is offline Fiery Forum Expert Contributor StarDigital is on a distinguished path
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    The calibration is telling the Fiery what the printers current printing state is. WIth that in mind you can use one stock to represent all for calibration. I use gloss text because it is what i started with and gives the best coverage and image transfer density. Adam is correct in saying that one calibration profile for one paper profile is the 'RIGHT' way. But that means for all those small jobs you have to calibrated before each one. I'm in a small business and that would be a hassle, and a waste of time and resources. I can get accurate results with just one calibration sheet for all my papers. But thats me. Also weight and size doesn't matter (from my experience) in terms of calibration, provided that the image transfer setting and GSM setting on the paper catalog are set properly.

    dan

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    adam1991 is offline Fiery Forum Expert Contributor adam1991 has proven very helpful adam1991 has proven very helpful adam1991 has proven very helpful adam1991 has proven very helpful adam1991 has proven very helpful
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    Quote Originally Posted by StarDigital View Post
    Adam is correct in saying that one calibration profile for one paper profile is the 'RIGHT' way. But that means for all those small jobs you have to calibrated before each one. I'm in a small business and that would be a hassle, and a waste of time and resources. I can get accurate results with just one calibration sheet for all my papers. But thats me. Also weight and size doesn't matter (from my experience) in terms of calibration, provided that the image transfer setting and GSM setting on the paper catalog are set properly.

    dan
    I don't disagree with any of that, with the caveat that it's up to your individual eye and shop requirements.

    However, to clarify: if you profile each media individually, that applies to all sizes of that same media. In addition, you don't have to calibrate that media every time you run it. If you don't run it for awhile, don't calibrate. If you start running it but it's been awhile, calibrate that stock. How long is "awhile"? That depends on your physical environment and the engine's ability to remain stable; it might be a day, it might be a week. But if you run that stock within that "awhile" range, there's no need to recalibrate at that point.

    And you define "awhile" in terms of days that you consider the calibration to be valid, and you can tell the Fiery to alert you in CWS when that period has past.

    But going back to what you said, maybe you want a single calibration in your shop, because you're just looking for pleasing and somewhat consistent color. The best way to achieve that--consistency--is by acting consistently with respect to calibration. What I mean is, choose one media for calibration, period. Attach that to a single profile--either a custom one or one of the built-in profiles. And then tell the Fiery to use that calibration for all stocks.

    And then as you recalibrate, you use that exact same media every time. Be consistent in what you tell the Fiery, and it will behave consistently.

    If you do this, you won't have accuracy--but you'll have consistency, and generally that's what people want. They want predictability.

    And this is easy. I call that media your "maintenance" media. You may print on it or not, but even if you're not printing on it, you use it to maintain the system.

    All other stocks will not be accurate, but even so they will behave predictably. There's your pleasing color.

    In between that is using a single profile, but creating unique calibration sets per stock. You get the worst of all worlds with that, in my opinion. You have to maintain multiple calibration sets, but each set has very limited knowledge of the underlying color reproduction of the press. You might as well make a profile for each stock at that point, or else go back to using a single media to create a single calibration set that's shared among all media.

    (Also: weight, coating, and paper structure all play into color reproduction. Don't lie to yourself. There's no shortcut. If you truly want a shared appearance across stocks and machines, profile each media on each machine and set the job tickets to match how color is processed against that profile. 140gsm is not 216gsm is not 271gsm, and gloss coated is not uncoated--and for that matter, offset uncoated is not digital uncoated.)

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