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Thread: Matching FOGRA39 on Ricoh 9110

  1. #1
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    Default Matching FOGRA39 on Ricoh 9110

    Hi,

    Were setting up our first of three Ricohs these days. Im new to Fiery and struggling with what I assumed was going to be easy.

    I have used the Express Profiler to linearize and to create a 1617 patch based profile.
    I have set CMYK / Grayscale Source to ISO Coaetd FOGRA39L (EFI) and Full (Output GCR)
    As output profile I have defined my freshly made Express profile.

    The result is as shown in my FMW v3 report.



    Am I missing something?
    I do not expect a perfect FMW, but a visually good FOGRA39 look.

  2. #2
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    First place I would look is the paper color. Seems your data shows the white point of your media is far away from the standard.

  3. #3
    StarDigital is offline Fiery Forum Expert Contributor StarDigital is on a distinguished path
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    try source profile. I've found that output profile changes the colors too much (fiery color properties CMYK source).
    if you're using Color profiler suite you should check out the posts about device linking. I'm not an expert on it so i can't give you details, sorry.

    Dan

  4. #4
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    Default RE:Matching FOGRA39 on Ricoh 9110

    Hi Lars.

    You are failing for two main reasons. Paper white is part of it as was pointed out, but you'll have to ignore that part of the failure if this it the paper you want to print on.

    The bigger problem is you don't have the gamut you need in C or Y. Especially in Y, the press is not giving you enough chroma.

    Since you used Express I assume it made you a new calibration and profile. I am assuming you printed the verification target using the preset Express made and just setting the source to ISO and the Method to Full (output). Both are the right steps.

    Please confirm you did not change any print settings other than these. If you change settings like resolution or halftone the tonality will shift and your calibration/profile may not work right. Also I assume you printed on the same paper and on the right side of it if it is coated only on one side.

    To dig a little deeper, please go to the calibrator in Command Workstation, go to "Manage", select the calibration set made by Express, go to View measurements, and take a screenshot. Let's see if you are just getting very low density values and maybe you need to have your press serviced.

    Two more question to answer when you post the screenshot. 1 - is the paper a high grade #1 coated stock? it probably is since your M and K have acceptable densities. 2- Did you warm up the press very well before profiling? Run a job or use the warmup pages in Express to accomplish this. If the press is cold always start with 10-20 warmup sheets.

    We'll look for your reply and then give you some more ideas.

    ~Lou

  5. #5
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    Thanks for the reply...

    The stock is a standard silk quality which typically measures 95/0/-4. Indeed there is something wrong as the FMW shows a B value of 2,65. When looking closer the paper has got a light magenta tone where there should be paper white. I have contacted Ricoh regarding this issue. I will re profile when the issue is solved.

    Download ICC profile. You will se that the gamut seems to be there. T
    I also see that the calibration set is made for 200 line + fine text, while I was sure that I selected 175 line + fine text as that is what I was recommended for general usage. Do you agree?




  6. #6
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    Default RE: Matching FOGRA39 on Ricoh 9110

    Sure looks like you have enough gamut. Are you seeing dots in non-image areas? Make sure paper simulation is turned off in Expert color settings.

    What are you measuring with? Did you profile with M0 measurements? Verify with same? You might want to try Verify in CPS just to be sure you see the same measurements as in the other comparison tool.

    As for the LPI, are you seeing the setting in the calset description? What do you see when you choose the preset made by Express in Job Properties?

    Based on the setting used to pass the US Digital Press certiification shown here <http://www.idealliance.org/sites/default/files/DPC%20ADS%20-%20Ricoh%20Pro%20C9100-9110%20v01_0.pdf> I would use 200 dot + Fine text setting. We usually test all the screens and do digital press certification with the one we find gives the best imaging stability.

    ~Lou

  7. #7
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    Ricoh found some defect cables which sorted out the magenta tones in the non printing areas.

    I have made an new calibration set and reproofed based on the new recommendation from Ricoh (175 dot). FMW report.
    What do you think?

    Is this quite allright?

  8. #8
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    Default RE: Matching FOGRA39 on Ricoh 9110

    Hi Lars.

    Much better but still not there. Looks like you need to get more cyan density, maybe an engine adjustment? Also its strange that the red overprint is out whem M and Y are compliant.

    Here are a few things I would try. Confirm you are using Color Profiler Suite 4.7.2 before you start.

    1. try 200 dot

    2. Print at least 10 calibration pages and measure last out. Use M1 or M0 mode.

    3. Print at least 10 profile targets. Try to use a large enough paper to fit 1617 on one page, or go to ECI to make it fit. After they print, rotate the job 180 and print again from command workstation.

    4.Use Printer Profiler rather than express, tell it you will average 2 sets. Measure and average the last out of each of the 10 sets and average using same M condition.

    5. When configuring the profile settings, start by choosing the factory default profile for a similar paper. Then enable Max GCR and optimize colorimetric precision, then make a profile.

    6. Check with Bodoni and also color profiler suite Verify with ugra/fogra v.3 and post both reports.

    I'll watch for this.

    ~Lou

  9. #9
    stonemask is offline Senior Fiery Forum Contributor stonemask is on a distinguished path
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    what source profile are you using? I have been using the ISO COATED v2 ECI with great success, usually I have to make a device link to pass the FOGRA39 test, the 651 barely fails when using a profile.

    Maybe you should also check the box Maximum GCR? some customers had been complaining about to much red in the prints but that fixes it.

  10. #10
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    Default RE: Matching FOGRA39 on Ricoh 9110

    Thought I would check back in on this. I can help you to device link with ISO profile and your custom output profile as stonemask suggests, let me know if you want some guidance. But I don't think 9110 should require a device link to pass.

    Did you manage to get the C dentisty increased? Looking at this with fresh eyes today it also looks like you need more Y density, that might fix the saturated reds.

    As for the screening, Express makes a preset for Command Workstation Job properties so just chose that to get the calibration, profile, and screening settings all to match. Do check the basic color settings before you print to make sure source is set to ISO.

    Please let us know your progress.

    ~Lou

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