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Thread: PDF does not render correctly with grayscale option

  1. #1
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    Default PDF does not render correctly with grayscale option

    Hello!

    I have a Konica Minolta Bizhub C1100 with IC-308H v1.1 RIP and Fiery Command Workstation 5.7.0.29.
    If I process this PDF with grayscale mode it does not RIP properly:

    grayscale:


    color or any other RIP with APPE or CPSI that I have access to:


    I tried all different settings that I could think of, the result stays the same.
    Overprint, detect black, ...

    Can someone please test this PDF on their Fiery to see which result you get if you try to RIP this as grayscale only?

    Kind regards and thanks in advance!
    Attached Images

  2. #2
    StarDigital is offline Fiery Forum Expert Contributor StarDigital is on a distinguished path
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    worked fine for me on Xerox 1000i

    Gracol, source gcr
    Text/graphic grey and black

    There were a lot of filled paths in the graphic. I'd try first to optimize the PDF (Save as optimized), and then to try saving as a postscript (try each separately on CWS). this will take some of the rastering away from CWS alowing CWS to rip quicker (a bit).

    Dan

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    adam1991 is offline Fiery Forum Expert Contributor adam1991 has proven very helpful adam1991 has proven very helpful adam1991 has proven very helpful adam1991 has proven very helpful adam1991 has proven very helpful
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    Processes fine here both ways through the Postscript RIP. IC-308 1.1_SP1 with all current patches. Currently configured to C1060.

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    Thanks everyone so far.

    If I choose this settings:


    I get the wrong result. If I choose CMYK instead of Grayscale the result is correct. If I deactivate "Adobe PDF Print Engine Preferred", the result is correct.
    If I convert to postscript with Acrobat Pro, the result is correct.

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    adam1991 is offline Fiery Forum Expert Contributor adam1991 has proven very helpful adam1991 has proven very helpful adam1991 has proven very helpful adam1991 has proven very helpful adam1991 has proven very helpful
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    Then don't run it through the APPE.

    I know that EFI has turned that on by default, but I believe that to be a mistake. Either way, consider everything you have to be nothing more than a tool--and not all tools can be used in all situations.

    It's perfectly OK to turn APPE off.

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    Quote Originally Posted by adam1991 View Post
    Then don't run it through the APPE.

    I know that EFI has turned that on by default, but I believe that to be a mistake. Either way, consider everything you have to be nothing more than a tool--and not all tools can be used in all situations.

    It's perfectly OK to turn APPE off.
    You are right, but that depends on the job. There are others where the CPSI cannot handle complex transparencies and APPE works.

    And I do expect Adobe's latest and greatest PDF RIP to "just work" with PDF files that other Adobe applications created. And I expect EFI/Konica Minolta to make it work, if there is a problem on their end. That seems to be the case, because other APPEs that I did test had no problem ripping that PDF correctly.

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    StarDigital is offline Fiery Forum Expert Contributor StarDigital is on a distinguished path
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    to know the ins and outs of the APPE programming language (other than the programmers) would be a major headache. Not all programs work with everything (look at Microsoft). So when it works, great, if it doesn't turn it off, no great loss at all, and its easy to do. Second postscript doesn't get the APPE option, if you didn't notice. I'm thinking (i could be wrong) that postscripting takes care of some of what APPE does so it isn't needed.

    Dan

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    adam1991 is offline Fiery Forum Expert Contributor adam1991 has proven very helpful adam1991 has proven very helpful adam1991 has proven very helpful adam1991 has proven very helpful adam1991 has proven very helpful
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    Quote Originally Posted by albersdruck View Post
    You are right, but that depends on the job. There are others where the CPSI cannot handle complex transparencies and APPE works.

    And I do expect Adobe's latest and greatest PDF RIP to "just work" with PDF files that other Adobe applications created. And I expect EFI/Konica Minolta to make it work, if there is a problem on their end. That seems to be the case, because other APPEs that I did test had no problem ripping that PDF correctly.
    The problem there is twofold:

    1) APPE is a black box that EFI doesn't control and, relatively speaking, knows not enough about--especially when compared to their knowledge base, well-earned over the years, of turning PDF to PS for their implementation of the CPSI.

    2) Adobe is CONSTANTLY updating their applications and giving them new functionality, and that new functionality doesn't always jibe with the 2-5 year old RIP technology out there in the world. You may get an update to InDesign CC2015, but that update may provide capabilities that your APPE doesn't know everything about.

    RIPs are not consumer pieces and are not updated the way consumer software is. So there will always be the potential for problems when feeding files made from current software into any RIP.

    EFI doesn't know that the RIP they made for KM doesn't handle your file correctly until and unless KM engages them. And the only way to alert KM that there's a problem is...to call KM service and alert them.

    But I still say, if you get the file to print out correctly by turning off APPE, then just turn off APPE. Problem solved.

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    Quote Originally Posted by adam1991 View Post
    RIPs are not consumer pieces and are not updated the way consumer software is. So there will always be the potential for problems when feeding files made from current software into any RIP.

    EFI doesn't know that the RIP they made for KM doesn't handle your file correctly until and unless KM engages them. And the only way to alert KM that there's a problem is...to call KM service and alert them.
    I already did that. And frankly, KM's service leaves a lot to be desired. This is not the first "feature" that we had with the pleasure of experiencing with this RIP.
    If this were problems that other implementations of Adobe's APPE have as well, I would not make a fuss about it.
    For now I am seriously contemplating running our jobs through our sheetfed-printing RIP (APPE as well, but faster and so far without any flaws we encountered with EFI/KM) and output a composite picture with 600/1200 dpi and feed that to the Fiery.
    Other than VDP this should work.

    Quote Originally Posted by adam1991 View Post
    But I still say, if you get the file to print out correctly by turning off APPE, then just turn off APPE. Problem solved.
    I do not have a problem to use a workaround to continue production, but I do want a permanent solution as well. Next time this could be a subtle error that is not noticed until production has finished. And that scares me, as you cannot check every page, word, graphic, picture ... of every job that you are printing.

    Thanks for your advice and the time you spent so far, adam1991. I appreciate that.

  10. #10
    adam1991 is offline Fiery Forum Expert Contributor adam1991 has proven very helpful adam1991 has proven very helpful adam1991 has proven very helpful adam1991 has proven very helpful adam1991 has proven very helpful
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    yeah, you're right to worry about the subtle bit that goes unnoticed until the customer rejects the job--even if he did approve the flawed proof.

    I hate to use the term "workaround" for this. It's a feature and a tool, and NOT using it isn't a "workaround". Not using it simply sends the file through the very mature and capable CPSI path.

    There is no guarantee that ANY file will work through ANY RIP, really.

    But if you can get your offset workflow to output a flat vector PDF (with spot colors where appropriate) that's been normalized, that's probably your overall best workflow. Prinergy, for example, does a superb job. Such software is generally kept VERY up to date, especially compared to the RIP on your press.

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