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Thread: Imposition Templates Not Available Through Properties

  1. #1
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    Angry Imposition Templates Not Available Through Properties

    I know there are other threads about this, but I wanted to make a new one to impress how critical this issue is. The fact that you cannot select imposition templates that have been created in right click impose in the properties is causing us massive issues.

    It's crazy that this issue hasn't been fixed yet. We have just upgraded from a Xerox 560 with a Creo server, to a Xerox J75 with the Fiery. The J75 was a huge step up, the Fiery seems to be a huge step back. On the Creo we could set up one click templates that our staff could choose and everything would print perfectly. With the Fiery we seem to be having a daily battle to get things to work properly. But the worst problem of all is the fact that Impose templates are not available through properties. I am absolutely baffled as to why this would be.

    The fact is that not all the files supplied to us are perfectly made, but we have to print them. The Creo managed this no problem, but the Fiery makes us jump through hoops. It is already annoying that I have to go over to the server in order to impose jobs manually for unusual jobs (rather than doing it at my computer), without the extra frustration of having to do the same for every standard business card or leaflet job.

    As the system is set up at the moment, Hot Folders, Presets and Workflows are completely useless to commercial printers like ourselves. They simply cannot be used as 95% of jobs we print are full bleed, so we HAVE TO use the User Defined page size.

    I cannot tell you how urgent it is that this is fixed. Now that Xerox has stopped supporting Creo we don't have a choice. Being able to set up simple templates or workflows for very regular, standard print jobs should be the first thing you make work, not shunting it down the pile in favour of functionality that hardly anyone uses.

    Incidentally, there are many other problems with the Fiery (regular transparency problems, grey boxes around bitmaps when printing greyscale, imposed sheets randomly moving off centre, lack of quick previews or thumbnails) but this is comfortably the most urgent.

  2. #2
    adam1991 is offline Fiery Forum Expert Contributor adam1991 has proven very helpful adam1991 has proven very helpful adam1991 has proven very helpful adam1991 has proven very helpful adam1991 has proven very helpful
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    You can still have Creo. Konica Minolta sell them like crazy, for the reasons you outline.

  3. #3
    oxident is offline Fiery Forum Expert Contributor oxident is on a distinguished path
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    Well, I know that's annoying but can't you set up different impose templates for your jobs?
    I mean, this would involve creating templates with fixed sizes and bleed amounts like 90x60mm with 3mm and so on. And it would also require that you visually check the files before submitting them but it is possible ;-)

    The Creos did that automatically? Amazing!
    IC-306 v3.01 FS100 Pro / KM C6000, IC-308 v2.1 FS150 Pro / KM C71hc / SD-513, IC-414 / KM C754
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    Sorry to play Devils Advocate on this one - but installed a J75 today & tried what the IP was moaning about ? however I think there are different issues being moaned about - first if you save an Impose template with a User Defined - there is a nice callout which, on closing the .dbp file tells you that it will only work in Impose ? so to me it seems obvious that you would not see this in the Layout -> Impose Tab in Job Properties ? This callout does not require a patch - it is there for all to see from Install -

    Moving on from this - is the software " broken " which the IP seems to suggest ? no it isn't because you are told that the functionality only supports it when using Impose only - it is a given that this a desired future feature, as EFI have already alluded to.

    A question I would ask - in the proof of concept stage prior to purchasing the kit - why you did not notice this ? presumably you must have tested your existing workflow on the Fiery ?

    I would humbly suggest - that a more realistic reason if Creo / Konica are seeing an upward trend in Sales would be more to do with price ? rather than with "Imposition".
    Last edited by thistlegorm; 07-20-2014 at 02:08 AM.
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  5. #5
    oxident is offline Fiery Forum Expert Contributor oxident is on a distinguished path
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    The question might be if this restriction is pure artificial (in order to not enable to much imposition features for workstations without an Impose license) or really technical nature (because some kind of impositions techniques can't be done without some work by CWS).

    My personal opinion is that the Fiery server just can't handle those, so called, complex imposition jobs on its own.

    But I also have to agree with thistlegorm's statement. I've also often forget to check some important key aspects when buying new print systems.
    IC-306 v3.01 FS100 Pro / KM C6000, IC-308 v2.1 FS150 Pro / KM C71hc / SD-513, IC-414 / KM C754
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  6. #6
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    Thanks for the replies. We have set up imposition templates for most of the jobs we do. However, we still have to manually pick all the other options that we want for the job. On the Creo, we clicked Load Template, we chose the template for that job (which we'd already set up and saved) when sending to the server and ALL the settings were correct and ready to go. With the Fiery, the process is as follows:

    - Send job to Server as PDF
    - Right click Impose, wait ages for the file to 'Download'
    - Choose Template from drop down
    - Click Edit button and select paper from Media Catalog, choose tray
    - Close and save imposed layout
    - Right click Properties
    - Set all other job options (finishing, color, etc.)
    - Print

    This seems a lot more work than it should be. My main criticism is, what is the point in having hot folders and workflows when they can't be used with any job that has bleed. It seems so obvious that the templates you set up in right click impose, should be available through the properties/layout tab. I can't see any good reason why they aren't now. You can't use the Properties > Layout > Impose without the license anyway. I can't see why user defined page size isn't on this version of impose. Why isn't it the same?

    Having a callout saying that something doesn't work, doesn't excuse it. I didn't actually say the software was 'broken', although I would argue that making some of your main selling points unusable for most standard jobs would suggest it is. I just can't understand why it has been made this way. Surely making the two different versions of impose (right click impose and properties > impose) is more work than using the same thing for both. Clicking Impose in properties should bring up the same options and templates as right click impose. That's just common sense.

    We didn't actually have any choice about the upgrade. We had a Color 560 with a Creo initially. The 560 had a major fault which meant it keep throwing up a fuser error up to 10 times a day. After a year of trying to fix it, Xerox eventually agreed to swap out the kit. We thought they were just exchanging the main box. They swapped everything, including our Creo which was taken away and replaced with the Fiery as they didn't support the Creo any more. When we upgraded to the J75, there wasn't any other option available.

    Incidentally, I like a lot about the Fiery, I just think that this is such a blaringly obvious problem which seems incredibly simple to fix.

  7. #7
    oxident is offline Fiery Forum Expert Contributor oxident is on a distinguished path
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    Good points, but:

    Quote Originally Posted by scarrott View Post
    It seems so obvious that the templates you set up in right click impose, should be available through the properties/layout tab. I can't see any good reason why they aren't now. You can't use the Properties > Layout > Impose without the license anyway. I can't see why user defined page size isn't on this version of impose. Why isn't it the same?

    ...

    Incidentally, I like a lot about the Fiery, I just think that this is such a blaringly obvious problem which seems incredibly simple to fix.
    I guess exactly here's the problem: As you might have noticed, the actual imposition workload, or at least most of it, happens on the client and not on the actual Fiery server. Therefore, the server needs to "know" as much information as possible.

    And that's were the Imposition plugin is needed in order to analyze the input file completely.

    EFI has already done some efforts to get around this issue (by introducing those limited Impose options directly in the job properties and by selling the JobFlow software) but exactly this shows us that the problems lies deeply inside the entire workflow:

    EFI tries to do as much work as possible outside the main RIP, swapping important key aspects to external utlities like HotFolder, Impose/Compose, JobFlow or CWS in general. Even JDF is handled by CWS on the Fiery server.
    IC-306 v3.01 FS100 Pro / KM C6000, IC-308 v2.1 FS150 Pro / KM C71hc / SD-513, IC-414 / KM C754
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  8. #8
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    Oxident is right, there is a technical limitation that restricts Impose templates using 'user defined' trim box to be hidden when accessing Job Properties from Hot Folders, and Virtual Printers.

    Workflows like these are using Fiery server side help to do the imposition, and the server side isn't aware of 'user defined' feature.

    We are working on it.

  9. #9
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    Thanks for getting back. I'm glad to hear it is being looked at and hope to see some improvement in the near future.

  10. #10
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    Do you have any idea of a timescale on this, incidentally? Are we talking weeks, months...decades?

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