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Thread: KM C6000 / confusion about profiling...

  1. #11
    Steve0 is offline Fiery Forum Expert Contributor Steve0 is on a distinguished path
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    Quote Originally Posted by adam1991 View Post
    I believe CPS 4.6 can do one great job, close to what Color Care 2.3 offers. The Express profiling is quick and easy and effective with a Fiery.

    That being said, I think Color Care does a better job--but in a way and to a degree that no one would really care. I'd take CPS Express profiling as a process over the Color Care process, if it meant someone would actually do it instead of thinking about it.

    And modern Creo profiling gives results pretty much identical to Color Care.
    Well said (highlight mine).

    This color quality stuff is like calculus to me. And I was a math honor student until I failed calculus. (Or it might have been the pretty girl sitting next to me in class.)

    Color Care has you do things at the machine -- baselining it, then linearizing it, making sure it can achieve certain max densities -- that Color Profiler Suite does not touch. When it comes to creating ICC profiles, I'll take CPS over CC any day, especially now with 4.6.

  2. #12
    adam1991 is offline Fiery Forum Expert Contributor adam1991 has proven very helpful adam1991 has proven very helpful adam1991 has proven very helpful adam1991 has proven very helpful adam1991 has proven very helpful
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    KM has a linearization guide to ensure the machine is healthy and is providing sufficient density of a print, so that calibration and profiling can be effective. A good service tech will also set the machine up at install in this linearized state, and he will do some CDC and density balance as he services the machine--using whatever spetro you make availabale to him, if any.

    Regardless of your mechanism to calibrate and profile, that machine baselining--linearization--needs to be done. And for density balance and CDC, Color Care is a convenient tool to use. (You can also use a tool from X-Rite, Windows only, that can capture the density balance spectro readings and send them to a file on a thumb drive that you can then put into the KM engine; not so convenient, but it is free to use that function of the tool).

    And while your service guys may do this, it's darned handy for you to have the tools and training to do it yourself on demand.

    I agree, if you already have the full Color Care suite to do the density balance (and maybe, if you're insane, per-stock CDC) then you might as well use that same tool to create a profile. Why get another tool, right?

    Well, the reason to get another tool is that EFI CPS integration with Fiery has always been good, and is getting better every version (you're welcome, Lou). Like I said, Color Care may give better results--but (a) nobody outside of you, me, and handful of other nerds would notice; and (b) EFI CPS and its integration with Fiery makes it WAY WAY easier to do the job.

    So here's an idea: use Color Care to assist with engine linearization tasks, get the engine healthy, then let the Fiery suite of tools (including CPS) do its thing. After all, the Fiery and its tools all assume a healthy engine in the first place, right?

    If you don't want to buy the whole Color Care suite because you'd be overbuying functions that you don't need, then KM has the very simple Color Care Measure--a slimmed down version of Catch that is designed solely for engine linearization tasks. Cheap. CHEAP. KM really wants you to have a healthy engine (because that's how you make sellable prints).

    Color Care Measure plus EFI CPS 4.6 plus an X-Rite i1 iSis XL on a Fiery-driven KM C6/7/8000 or C1060/70 or C1085/1100--it's a killer suite of tools.

  3. #13
    oxident is offline Fiery Forum Expert Contributor oxident is on a distinguished path
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    Great information adam1991. It's always a pleasure to read such valueable details from an experienced person.

    So I guess, my conclusion would be to let KM do the CDC stuff (and anything else at the machine level). That should be covered by my service contract.

    And then I'll start using CPS for creating the relevant media profiles. Maybe my initial steps where I tried to create a "competing" profile to the one, the KM tech created, didn't result in a "superior" quality because I didn't measure enough patches.
    IC-306 v3.01 FS100 Pro / KM C6000, IC-308 v2.1 FS150 Pro / KM C71hc / SD-513, IC-414 / KM C754
    CWS 5.8 SP2, Windows 10 x64

  4. #14
    Steve0 is offline Fiery Forum Expert Contributor Steve0 is on a distinguished path
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    Users can do the linearization and density balance tasks -- they are trained to do so when they buy Color Care (or Color Care Measure, which is super-cheap).

    But the process begins by running out test prints (12x18 full-page solids and tints, including process gray) that are intended to reveal imperfections in output.

    Those imperfections, if any, must be remedied by a service tech before going any further. Otherwise the measurements taken on Color Care (and CPS) charts may be . . . wrong.

  5. #15
    adam1991 is offline Fiery Forum Expert Contributor adam1991 has proven very helpful adam1991 has proven very helpful adam1991 has proven very helpful adam1991 has proven very helpful adam1991 has proven very helpful
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    Quote Originally Posted by oxident View Post
    Great information adam1991. It's always a pleasure to read such valueable details from an experienced person.

    So I guess, my conclusion would be to let KM do the CDC stuff (and anything else at the machine level). That should be covered by my service contract.

    And then I'll start using CPS for creating the relevant media profiles. Maybe my initial steps where I tried to create a "competing" profile to the one, the KM tech created, didn't result in a "superior" quality because I didn't measure enough patches.
    What your service contract covers in this regard is, to me, a bit of a gray area. There's no reason the service tech shouldn't perform the basic density balance and initial CDC setup, and re-do the basics after replacing drums and wires, but I can certainly see an end user wanting the ability to re-do this on demand and also the ability to set up per-stock CDC--and that's definitely on the end user to accomplish.

    As for your competing profile, there are plenty of potholes in that road. If you use a modern version of CPS, it knows how to drive around them (provided the machine has sufficient density to start with). I've done it with 254 patches, and it makes a huge difference over the stock profiles.

    You also have to use the output profiles properly, of course, and that's a whole 'nother discussion on media driven workflows...

  6. #16
    adam1991 is offline Fiery Forum Expert Contributor adam1991 has proven very helpful adam1991 has proven very helpful adam1991 has proven very helpful adam1991 has proven very helpful adam1991 has proven very helpful
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve0 View Post
    Users can do the linearization and density balance tasks -- they are trained to do so when they buy Color Care (or Color Care Measure, which is super-cheap).

    But the process begins by running out test prints (12x18 full-page solids and tints, including process gray) that are intended to reveal imperfections in output.

    Those imperfections, if any, must be remedied by a service tech before going any further. Otherwise the measurements taken on Color Care (and CPS) charts may be . . . wrong.
    Yes. Absolutely it's best if the end user of the press knows the process AND works with a service tech on this part to remediate any machine issues first.

    That being said, those test prints are designed to reveal EVERY flaw, some of which are inherent to the imaging process itself. You won't remediate everything you see.

  7. #17
    oxident is offline Fiery Forum Expert Contributor oxident is on a distinguished path
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    Okay guys, I think it's time for me to request a quote for KM's measure tool ;-)
    IC-306 v3.01 FS100 Pro / KM C6000, IC-308 v2.1 FS150 Pro / KM C71hc / SD-513, IC-414 / KM C754
    CWS 5.8 SP2, Windows 10 x64

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