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Thread: IC306: "PDF Rip failure" when physical RAM is exhausted?

  1. #1
    oxident is offline Fiery Forum Expert Contributor oxident is on a distinguished path
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    Default IC306: "PDF Rip failure" when physical RAM is exhausted?

    Hi!

    I've tried to render a quite complex pdf file (imported directly using CWS) which failed in the middle of the process by either a "pdf rip failure" when using APPE or a simple crash of the EFI Fiery service when using the regular PS engine.

    There's one curious thing I've noticed: The server starts ripping a particular page and if I take a look at Windows' Task Manager's memory allocation page, the amount of (physically) available RAM decreases more and more. As soon as it reached almost 100%, the crash occurs. Needless to say that there's still plenty of virtual memory (over 6GB) available and HDD space on all partitions is also sufficient.

    On regular (working) jobs, I've also noticed that the CPU usage drops as soon as the system runs out of physical memory. Than, it looks like it somehow flushes the ripped data (hundreds of MB are being released after a few seconds) and then the CPU usage goes up again until the job is finished.

    Could it be that the Fiery service somehow refuses using virtual memory and crashed if a single page cannot be rendered using the currently available RAM?

    The system is a fully patched IC-306 v2.0.
    Last edited by oxident; 07-15-2013 at 08:13 AM.
    IC-306 v3.01 FS100 Pro / KM C6000, IC-308 v2.1 FS150 Pro / KM C71hc / SD-513, IC-414 / KM C754
    CWS 5.8 SP2, Windows 10 x64

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    thistlegorm is offline Fiery Forum Expert Contributor thistlegorm has achieved rock star status thistlegorm has achieved rock star status thistlegorm has achieved rock star status thistlegorm has achieved rock star status thistlegorm has achieved rock star status thistlegorm has achieved rock star status thistlegorm has achieved rock star status thistlegorm has achieved rock star status thistlegorm has achieved rock star status thistlegorm has achieved rock star status thistlegorm has achieved rock star status
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    Hi Oxident,

    Yep seen the same behaviour with an EFI RIP attached to a Xerox box - Customer called software support supplied their PDF/VT file & I went there - confirmed & escalated, currently sitting with Level 3 / EFI...
    Remember you are what you eat ! I'm a twix..

  3. #3
    oxident is offline Fiery Forum Expert Contributor oxident is on a distinguished path
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    Well, let's hope it won't become a Xerox exclusive fix ;-)

    Especially after upgrading to the latest CWS on the server, the amount of physical RAM dropped even further ... resulting in even more failed jobs. Most of the time, I close almost every application on the server to get as much free RAM as possible and then it works.

    UPDATE: Okay, on an (lower end; without APPE) IC-413, the RIP process doesn't fail "visually" on those complex files but the server doesn't process all pages :-(
    Last edited by oxident; 07-17-2013 at 04:57 AM.
    IC-306 v3.01 FS100 Pro / KM C6000, IC-308 v2.1 FS150 Pro / KM C71hc / SD-513, IC-414 / KM C754
    CWS 5.8 SP2, Windows 10 x64

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    thistlegorm is offline Fiery Forum Expert Contributor thistlegorm has achieved rock star status thistlegorm has achieved rock star status thistlegorm has achieved rock star status thistlegorm has achieved rock star status thistlegorm has achieved rock star status thistlegorm has achieved rock star status thistlegorm has achieved rock star status thistlegorm has achieved rock star status thistlegorm has achieved rock star status thistlegorm has achieved rock star status thistlegorm has achieved rock star status
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    It probably will be an "exclusive" fix because I have documented the behaviour on a specific RIP & with a specific file type & have proved - thus can be recreated & so I can escalate & hopefully achieve a favourable outcome.

    As I have stated in previous posts this is an excellent forum to view / express different experiences / opinions - however the quickest route to getting these issues solved is to engage the service team that look after your particular product & get the issue documented & escalated & hopefully resolved.. waiting on the next release of CWS 5 probably isn't the quickest route & in reality probably will not fix your issue....
    Remember you are what you eat ! I'm a twix..

  5. #5
    oxident is offline Fiery Forum Expert Contributor oxident is on a distinguished path
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    Well, yes, I understand what you mean. My problem is that the last time I tried to open such "rip-related" cases using regular technical support channels (on Xerox machines), I only received some dirty workarounds tricks or they tried to sell me a better rip

    That's why I've started to ask those kind of questions in this forum.

    Yesterday, I've tried to add more memory to my IC306 (from 4 to 8GB) but this leads to communication problems between the controller card and the printer ("printed rejected serial packet").

    Digging deeper into the pdf rip failure problem, I've found out that the Fiery.exe process is failing as soon as it reaches 4GB of virtual memory. I guess, that's a limitation of 32-bit processes, even on XP64.
    IC-306 v3.01 FS100 Pro / KM C6000, IC-308 v2.1 FS150 Pro / KM C71hc / SD-513, IC-414 / KM C754
    CWS 5.8 SP2, Windows 10 x64

  6. #6
    kmbs-dcd is offline Fiery Forum Expert Contributor kmbs-dcd is on a distinguished path
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    Default Nothing new here

    In my experience this is nothing new. Rolling back across my previous 10 years of Fiery experience with Canon, Toshiba, and KM RIP's on both color and B&W engines, the ability of the RIP software to use virtual memory is historically poor. If you can count to 5 while the memory utilization is pegged @ 100% the system has gone to heaven and you will likely have to reboot the RIP.

    Although not officially supported, previous models would let you bump up the RAM. I have not tried this on the Pro80 server model you have but I would check carefully that you have exactly matched the RAM specs of the motherboard. Even then YMMV.

  7. #7
    oxident is offline Fiery Forum Expert Contributor oxident is on a distinguished path
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    Well said. I can confirm what you've said when I remember how I've started this business

    The main "worker process" is Fiery.exe and this one is unfortunately 32bit and therefore limited to 4GB RAM, regardless if it's physical or virtual. Putting more physical RAM in the machine leads to a problem in communication between this process and the printer interface (which is 64bit) because Fiery.exe can't safely access the interface's shared memory if it's above the 4GB space :-(

    So I fear there are only two possibilities to deal with this:

    Either compile the system software for 64bit or implement a better memory management within Fiery.exe in order to avoid reaching the 4GB limit.

    But, to be honest: On prior RIPs, I've almost never imported jobs directly. So maybe I should just revert to the "classic" workflow which consists of printing files out of Acrobat.
    Last edited by oxident; 07-20-2013 at 05:24 AM.
    IC-306 v3.01 FS100 Pro / KM C6000, IC-308 v2.1 FS150 Pro / KM C71hc / SD-513, IC-414 / KM C754
    CWS 5.8 SP2, Windows 10 x64

  8. #8
    adam1991 is offline Fiery Forum Expert Contributor adam1991 has proven very helpful adam1991 has proven very helpful adam1991 has proven very helpful adam1991 has proven very helpful adam1991 has proven very helpful
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    Here's something you may or may not know: EFI used to use a special switch at bootup that tells Windows to use only a certain amount of the RAM. As far as Windows was concerned, only X amount of RAM was installed. The rest of the RAM was used exclusively by the private Fiery service; Windows didn't even know it was there.

    I haven't looked lately to see if EFI still does that, but I wouldn't be surprised if they do. This behavior goes back a long way.

  9. #9
    oxident is offline Fiery Forum Expert Contributor oxident is on a distinguished path
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    Yes, I'm aware of this switch and yes, EFI still uses it. Although I think its purpose on these Fierys is different than on older ones: It looks to me that it only ensures that the interface's onboard memory won't get mapped to an address space which isn't accessible by fiery.exe.

    For example: If I remove the switch than the printer communication crashes in the same way as it does if I expand the memory (while leaving this switch activated).

    It seems that fiery.exe has a problem if the interface's memory is mapped above 3GB. Unfortunately Windows doesn't allow specifying a "memory hole"...
    IC-306 v3.01 FS100 Pro / KM C6000, IC-308 v2.1 FS150 Pro / KM C71hc / SD-513, IC-414 / KM C754
    CWS 5.8 SP2, Windows 10 x64

  10. #10
    oxident is offline Fiery Forum Expert Contributor oxident is on a distinguished path
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    Does anyone know if the Fiery setting "Keep PDF Objects in Cache" somehow affects this problem?
    Or are there any job specific settings which might consume a huge amount of memory (and are not affecting the image quality too much)?
    IC-306 v3.01 FS100 Pro / KM C6000, IC-308 v2.1 FS150 Pro / KM C71hc / SD-513, IC-414 / KM C754
    CWS 5.8 SP2, Windows 10 x64

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