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Thread: RIP for Workcentre 7500 Series Machine....

  1. #11
    Kdw75 is offline Senior Fiery Forum Contributor Kdw75 is on a distinguished path
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThomasBundgaard View Post
    If memory serves me correct, I think we had to pay in the vicinity of 5,000 USD for each our of RIPS connected to our WC7556.

    Since I'm from Denmark where everything is expensive, I'd imagine you can buy a new one for something like 3,000 USD.
    The Xerox guy I that sold us our machine said he wasn't sure, but thought it would cost us around $10,000. We will be buying a newer faster machine in a few years. I guess then I will make sure to see about getting a RIP before we close the deal.

  2. #12
    adam1991 is offline Fiery Forum Expert Contributor adam1991 has proven very helpful adam1991 has proven very helpful adam1991 has proven very helpful adam1991 has proven very helpful adam1991 has proven very helpful
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kdw75 View Post
    Thanks for the good info. I guess a RIP just isn't worth it for my situation.

    The only reason I even wanted a rip was so that when I send over variable data pages it can cache the static data and just send the text that changes. Right now it has to process the entire page which takes a while for thousands of pages.

    I really can't believe that the ability to cache data that doesn't change isn't a basic function on a machine like the Workcentre. It seems like Xerox needs to drastically improve their built-in controllers in this regard.
    not at all. Why would they include that functionality in the basic controller, when you're the only one in the world using the basic controller to do that? That's a cost that every buyer would have to incur, and that's crazy.

    They *do* sell a product that solves your problem, and that's the Fiery.

    You are trying to use a compact hatchback to haul iron ore for a living, and you think that just because it has four wheels and a steering wheel it should be able to do what that similarly equipped heavy dump truck does.

    If you want a system that's designed to handle your variable data, you should buy a system that's designed to handle your variable data. The fact that it puts four inks on a page and processes print jobs doesn't mean it's suitable to do what you need.

    For example, you *do* know, don't you, that your Workcentre image quality is not the same as the image quality of machines designed for graphic arts work, right? Your Workcentre is an office machine, designed to print Powerpoints and emails and Google maps. As such, the Workcentre's xerographic capabilities are not the same as those built into machines designed for high end graphic arts requirements.

  3. #13
    Kdw75 is offline Senior Fiery Forum Contributor Kdw75 is on a distinguished path
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    Quote Originally Posted by adam1991 View Post
    not at all. Why would they include that functionality in the basic controller, when you're the only one in the world using the basic controller to do that? That's a cost that every buyer would have to incur, and that's crazy.

    They *do* sell a product that solves your problem, and that's the Fiery.

    You are trying to use a compact hatchback to haul iron ore for a living, and you think that just because it has four wheels and a steering wheel it should be able to do what that similarly equipped heavy dump truck does.

    If you want a system that's designed to handle your variable data, you should buy a system that's designed to handle your variable data. The fact that it puts four inks on a page and processes print jobs doesn't mean it's suitable to do what you need.

    For example, you *do* know, don't you, that your Workcentre image quality is not the same as the image quality of machines designed for graphic arts work, right? Your Workcentre is an office machine, designed to print Powerpoints and emails and Google maps. As such, the Workcentre's xerographic capabilities are not the same as those built into machines designed for high end graphic arts requirements.
    Is your analogy really accurate in this case? The printer already has all the hardware it needs to be able to cache objects that don't change. How much more would it take for them to add this functionality? A little bit of extra programming. It shouldn't raise the price much, if at all.

    The quality of our machine is about the same as the Xerox 560 production machine. Both of which do look much worse than offset. We only use the machine for a specific client because it was so cheap per click and the printer cost so little. Even though the Xerox machines look like crap compared to offset, there are some clients that just don't care.

    I don't want or need the features that a 3rd party RIP provides. I just want basic cache functionality. Even DVRs use caching of the incoming satellite feed so they only have to update the pixels that change scene to scene.

    The better analogy would be that I bought a truck that was built to haul 10 tons except it was missing the necessary springs in the rear. When I went to find out about getting the heavier springs, which cost a couple hundred bucks, they tell me that instead of putting in the right springs I need a 3rd party trailer that costs thousands!

    On our film and plate imagesetters they used to have stand alone RIPs back in the 90s. We paid close to $30,000 for one stand alone RIP that had an outdated CPU compared to several year old desktops at the time. I kept saying that it would make sense for them to put an interface card in your desktop computer, which is faster and cost much less, and let it do the ripping. Then in the 2000s that's exactly what they did and the RIPs dropped way down in price and the performance shot up through the roof because you could use modern technology in your desktop and upgrade it as needed.

    As a workaround we can just print the common data offset and then imprint the variable data, which is just text. Just frustrates me at how archaic the built in controller is.
    Last edited by Kdw75; 07-04-2013 at 11:31 PM.

  4. #14
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    If you compare Offset prints to digital printed stuff you literally compare apples with pears. Atleast if you don't understand much of a color managed workflow. You _can't_ expect to get a digital printer and it will print like your offset press out of the box.

    Also its a matter of the medias you print on, the gammuts of the stocks and te machine, calibration and profilation.
    You can, if you invest into the technology and are able to understand the complexity, get a pretty close impression of both print processes. And the Xerox 560 with Fiery is actually the best machine to do so.

    The speed of a RIP is not, in any way, related to the output quality of a printer.

    Your WC75xx can actually get a pretty decent print impression too if you get the fiery, calibrate it regulary and use stock profiles to get the maximum quality.

    Most people complain about the fact that their out-of-the-box digital devices don't "look" like their color managed offset press. People need to understand that this can't be. Just compare the invest you made for both systems. Be clear that both devices use different processes.

  5. #15
    adam1991 is offline Fiery Forum Expert Contributor adam1991 has proven very helpful adam1991 has proven very helpful adam1991 has proven very helpful adam1991 has proven very helpful adam1991 has proven very helpful
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kdw75 View Post
    The quality of our machine is about the same as the Xerox 560 production machine. Both of which do look much worse than offset. We only use the machine for a specific client because it was so cheap per click and the printer cost so little. Even though the Xerox machines look like crap compared to offset, there are some clients that just don't care.
    So you bought the cheapest machine that you could call a digital color printer, but complain about its lack of features? That it should "by definition" include every feature you could possibly want at any time you decide you want that feature?

    You bought this used, didn't you?



    I don't want or need the features that a 3rd party RIP provides.
    Well, in this case, you do.


    The better analogy would be that I bought a truck that was built to haul 10 tons except it was missing the necessary springs in the rear.
    Not at all. You specifically bought the cheapest truck on the lot, but now have buyer's remorse because you either didn't check it out properly for your needs, or else your needs have changed and you didn't future-proof yourself and now you expect that whoever sold you the truck should have anticipated your future needs and given you what you would need in the future--but for no extra cost whatsoever.

    The fact is, no, the vendor/manufacturer is not going to give away value. The target market for the base Workcentre very specifically is not people who need caching for VI. The manufacturer decided that, and equipped it thusly. They *also* offer the option of doing some heavy lifting, but that option--an external Fiery--is an extra cost feature.

    The manufacturer decided that. End of story.




    On our film and plate imagesetters they used to have stand alone RIPs back in the 90s. We paid close to $30,000 for one stand alone RIP that had an outdated CPU compared to several year old desktops at the time. I kept saying that it would make sense for them to put an interface card in your desktop computer, which is faster and cost much less, and let it do the ripping. Then in the 2000s that's exactly what they did and the RIPs dropped way down in price and the performance shot up through the roof because you could use modern technology in your desktop and upgrade it as needed.
    I get it. The RIP should be independent of the engine. In the digital world, it's not. That's just how it is. The manufacturer has decided that if you want modern technologies, you will pay for them and you will upgrade the entire system every few years.

  6. #16
    Kdw75 is offline Senior Fiery Forum Contributor Kdw75 is on a distinguished path
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    Quote Originally Posted by adam1991 View Post
    So you bought the cheapest machine that you could call a digital color printer, but complain about its lack of features? That it should "by definition" include every feature you could possibly want at any time you decide you want that feature?

    You bought this used, didn't you?





    Well, in this case, you do.




    Not at all. You specifically bought the cheapest truck on the lot, but now have buyer's remorse because you either didn't check it out properly for your needs, or else your needs have changed and you didn't future-proof yourself and now you expect that whoever sold you the truck should have anticipated your future needs and given you what you would need in the future--but for no extra cost whatsoever.

    The fact is, no, the vendor/manufacturer is not going to give away value. The target market for the base Workcentre very specifically is not people who need caching for VI. The manufacturer decided that, and equipped it thusly. They *also* offer the option of doing some heavy lifting, but that option--an external Fiery--is an extra cost feature.

    The manufacturer decided that. End of story.






    I get it. The RIP should be independent of the engine. In the digital world, it's not. That's just how it is. The manufacturer has decided that if you want modern technologies, you will pay for them and you will upgrade the entire system every few years.
    Xerox is in competition with the EFI. So you would think they would make their built-in controller have more features since it would be so easy to do.

    We bought this machine brand new for a single job. The salesman, who is also a repairman for Xerox, saw that we were printing the variable data job on offset and then imprinting the variable part on our B&W laser printer. He told us that he could get us a good price on this machine with a cheap per click cost even though it is full color with coverage over 70%. After installing it we find out that it takes around 1 minute to process each 2 sided 12.5"x18" page. He then tells us that he thought the built in controller cached the static data, but wasn't sure how to enable that feature. Xerox says it doesn't.

    You don't charge more just because you can. You charge more when it actually takes lots of R&D and parts costs on your end. Xerox already has the hardware to do caching. All it would take is a little more programming. You don't charge a lot more for something so simple. If the RIPS cost a reasonable amount then so many more people would buy them that the RIP company could make a lot more money.

    I still don't see how Xerox can afford to overnight tons of supplies to us 15 times a month with the click price being so low. When we are busy we are going through two sets of toner per day since every sheet is pretty much solid coverage. I was informed that Xerox started charging each 11x17 or bigger sheet as two clicks right after we got ours, which would have made them too expensive to bother with for our use. So after our 5 year supplies/service contract is up on this machine we will have to see if another machine will make sense.

    Xerox doesn't seem to understand that they need to keep their prices down if they want to compete with presses that are so much faster, longer lasting, more reliable and better quality.

    Another thing that gripes me about this WC 7556 is how slow the system seems to be when using the touch panel. It makes me think they are using outdated technology in it as well. Why don't they spend a few dollars and put a couple quad core chips in there instead of the old single core 1GHz chip they use. No wonder they cut the price by 60+% to make a sale.

  7. #17
    adam1991 is offline Fiery Forum Expert Contributor adam1991 has proven very helpful adam1991 has proven very helpful adam1991 has proven very helpful adam1991 has proven very helpful adam1991 has proven very helpful
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    You don't charge more just because you can.
    Oh my. Yes, you do. You absolutely do. You charge for the value you provide, not for your cost of providing it.

    Just ask any lawyer, for example. Or high end car manufacturer.

    You were sold, but didn't investigate. Sorry to hear that.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kdw75 View Post
    Another thing that gripes me about this WC 7556 is how slow the system seems to be when using the touch panel. It makes me think they are using outdated technology in it as well. Why don't they spend a few dollars and put a couple quad core chips in there instead of the old single core 1GHz chip they use. No wonder they cut the price by 60+% to make a sale.
    Fully agreed. It's hilariously slow and much slower than our old 7425.

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