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adause
11-21-2013, 12:03 PM
I was wondering if there was a possible fix for this or let it be known of a possible bug.

It seems that when I change the values of spot colors I no longer can "revert" back to the factory numbers.

Is this a known issue and is there a fix for this. My old Pantone libraries I do not have this problem.

Thanks

Actually I wanted to add something to this I just thought of. Another weird issue that started up say 5-6 months ago possibly longer is that when I click on a spot to edit, the window pops up with different values. This doesn't happen always but often. Here is an example and to let you know I opened 4 other spot colors trying to get it to do it and on the 5th try it did it. So as I say it doesn't happen every time, but often.

I am unable to attach so I will try in the next post.

thistlegorm
11-21-2013, 04:21 PM
Mods - can you help us out on this one..

I was always under the impression that a Pantone was exactly that i.e a reference colour ? & that the CMYK values against it was always the CMYK equivalent of the colour - just like a Pantone Swatch in real life ? hence why the colour bubble showed the Pantone & the Delta E difference with the CMYK ? if you can actually adjust a Pantone ?? is this not the same as measuring 2 foot with 12 " Rule just change the Inches from 25.4 mm to 50.8mm...??

adam1991
11-21-2013, 08:10 PM
Pantone colors are named colors, and their specific names match up with specific L*a*b* values.

Does it make sense now? 'Cuz if not, we'll be here a long, long time.

adause
11-22-2013, 10:40 AM
Okay had no luck attaching this image yesterday so let me try again.

However what my main concern is is that:

1. On the Pantone+ libraries I cannot "revert" back to factory once I change them and,
2. When I click on a spot to open and edit the values change or are different in the pop-up/edit window.

Very frustrating but really not that big of a deal.

920

Danny W
11-27-2013, 03:57 AM
Mods - can you help us out on this one..

I was always under the impression that a Pantone was exactly that i.e a reference colour ? & that the CMYK values against it was always the CMYK equivalent of the colour - just like a Pantone Swatch in real life ? hence why the colour bubble showed the Pantone & the Delta E difference with the CMYK ? if you can actually adjust a Pantone ?? is this not the same as measuring 2 foot with 12 " Rule just change the Inches from 25.4 mm to 50.8mm...??

Pantone spot colours aren't CMYK references, but formulas for mixing single solid inks (not CMYK). Those formulas appear different depending on the substrate they're printed on (most notably between coated and uncoated papers, hence the 'C' and 'U' swatch libraries).

If you're printing process colour, the CMYK formulas that most closely emulate those solid inks depend on substrate and many other factors ('press conditions'). So you can't have one CMYK formula for each Pantone colour. That's what 'Spot-On' is for - to specify the CMYK formula that gives you the closest match on your device.

Pantone did used to include CMYK formulas, based on their own unique press conditions, in the swatch libraries that came with DTP software. This lead to, in my opinion, wide misuse of them in files that were supposed to be prepared for process colour print. They've since switched (controversially but in my opinion, wisely) to only including L*a*b* values in their swatch libraries. L*a*b*describes colours independently of press conditions, monitor appearance etc. Your colour management settings will determine what CMYK values those those L*a*b* get converted to.

ColorQA_Victor
11-27-2013, 02:44 PM
adause,

The EFI Pantone + library you are installing into your server is considered at custom library for your server. The Revert to Factory option only applies to factory installed spot color libraries - that is why you cannot use the revert feature with the Pantone + library you installed. I can see the dynamic this can cause customers using Pantone + where they want to revert one or so colors instead of deleting the Pantone + library and reinstalling it. I'm going to consult the team that develops Spot-On/the spot color manager to verify what I understand is correct.

As for the other issue you are reporting, I'm not able to reproduce the issue. Can you please let me know what version of Command Workstation you are using and what Fiery server you are working with that is reproducing this issue?

adause
11-27-2013, 06:18 PM
Hmm okay well thank you for that info on the Pantone+ libraries. Yes that is indeed an issue if I am unable to revert back. One would think once you have it dialed in you are good, but I think for those that have high expectations for matching colors, there are many variables that come into play.

One main reason for this being a problem is when the ppl at the front desk try to show the swatch books I printed out to help them choose a color (factory/default set values) I find I need to revert back. However, many jobs that were printed offset I make tweaks to some of the spot values to gain a closer match. Again, many variables also cause me to perform such tasks (substrates, condition of printer, white points, media profiles, etc.)

I think I had mentioned earlier in this thread that as far as the values changing it is not EVERY time I go to edit, but often. I suggest try 4-5 different colors and see if the values in the edit window have changed.

I am using CWS 5.5.0.35

c901- E-41 v1.0/9 Release 2
cpp650- 65c-KM/8 Release 2

Appreciate the help

adam1991
11-28-2013, 08:56 AM
If you're operating your machine correctly, there shouldn't even be a need to adjust the spot color libraries.

Because the named colors are stored as L*a*b* values, and because all of those values are processed through the destination profile, it all comes down to how well you're managing the destination profiles.

I agree, if you're not managing the destination profiles at all--if you're using one single destination/calibration set--then you'll be chasing the named colors for every different sheet of paper, if your goal is to maximize the accuracy of those named colors on that paper. And in the end, the best you'll get for all your time is not the best that the system could put out. In general you'll spend some time, get "close enough," decide you've spent enough time, you'll print the job, and you'll move on.

But if you profile each press/media combination, and if you make a calibration set for each profile, and if you set up and use the paper catalog correctly, then each spot color will be properly adjusted each time you ask it to be put onto any given piece of paper. You won't be able manually adjust it to be any better. The whole Fiery system manages that. It does so by washing the L*a*b* values (which are the only Pantone values that exist) through the appropriate calibration set, which tells the Fiery exactly what CMYK it needs to pass on to the engine in order to provide the best, most accurate representation of that color that it can.

It's worth taking the time to set up correctly, if accurate and repeatable color is your goal. And it differentiates you from any other vendor your customer may choose.

It does help if you've spent the money for a print engine that's able to be consistent; just because it puts color inks on the page, doesn't mean the engine itself is capable of what you're asking of it. The processes that set up the Fiery are readings from a single point in time; it's up to the print engine to be able to replicate that performance reliably over a long run.

adause
12-20-2013, 02:18 PM
@adam in theory you are correct.

@ColorQA_Victor where you able to recreate this after trying several times as well as different spots?