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markdyck
12-06-2010, 11:34 AM
I've got a bit of a head scratcher around a file here on my C900. I've printed these business cards before and everything has always printed just fine.

Now, for whatever reason, the text in the card is printing lighter. When I check the text in Pitstop, all the colour values are identical for the text. The only thing that's different, is that part of the text has been converted to outlines, and the rest left as text. When I change all the text to outlines, everything is printed at the colour it should.

Currently as the attached file is, "The World's Greatest Treasure Hunt - Quest for the Golden Eagle" prints at the correct colour and the remaining text prints too light.

(I'm currently having issues attaching the file, I will continue to try throughout the day)

Why is this happening? Can anyone else duplicate my issue?

manyfaces
12-06-2010, 12:05 PM
You're not crazy. I can't see your attachment so I can't verify that what you're seeing is identical to what I've run into. But I've run into similar behavior where text prints lighter than linework as well. I even posted about it on the forums before.
http://fieryforums.efi.com/showthread.php?p=4123#post4123

If this is new behavior on files which printed fine before, is "Toner Reduction" turned on where it wasn't previously?

markdyck
12-06-2010, 12:27 PM
No, Toner Reduction is definitely turned off. I've never used it, and the default is to be off.

I find the behaviour to be very odd, and I'm glad to hear I'm not alone. Now, lets have EFI help us figure out what's wrong!

BTW - I still can't upload a file due to some database error on the EFI side.

Lou_P
12-06-2010, 12:54 PM
Can you please look at the color settings for the job, and report the gray and black settings from the lower left of the basic settings (or the gray and black tab in the expert settings?

Lou

markdyck
12-06-2010, 01:02 PM
Gray & Black Settings:
RGB: Text/Graphics
CMYK: Text/Graphics/Images

I should note that the colour breakdown of the text in question is:
C-72
M-92
Y-100
K-28

Nick_V
12-06-2010, 01:14 PM
"Under the hood" there's always some level of toner reduction active since there's always an engine-limit beyond which you risk breaking things (taken to the extreme, no toner-based engine can handle printing 400% coverage). The "Toner Reduction" checkbox refers to the amount of toner reduction and should be thought of really as a "More Toner Reduction" checkbox.

What Manyfaces guesses is quite possible. Each OEM will have a different toner reduction specification for each different engine. It's not unheard of for an OEM to require that EFI treat text, linework, and continuous tone data differently with regard to their toner limits.

One other thing you should consider is the dithering mode you're running in. The C900 has a number of options, some of which also treat text, linework, and continous tone differently. These modes are for detail-priority jobs where color is a secondary concern (the Fiery color calibration pages are continous tone). Any dithering mode that lists two items (e.g. "200 dot + fine text") is a mixed screen mode.

markdyck
12-06-2010, 02:40 PM
Ok, so it seems I've been able to nail this problem down a bit more. It's not an EFI issue I would say, more of an "engine" issue. I took both text & graphics and dropped the colour values down to see at what toner percentage did things start to change.

Under 200% there was no noticeable difference, everything printed exactly the same. Around 225% is the highest that it SEEMS to still be the same. At 250%, there is a definite difference between the text and the graphic.

So, I'm guessing that one of my Ricoh techs changed a setting recently and that's the culprit here, not anything to do with the Fiery. Thanks for the troubleshooting help!

markdyck
12-07-2010, 01:26 PM
Ok, scratch my previous post thinking this wasn't an EFI related issue. After a little more "troubleshooting", it absolutely has to be.

Upon ripping the job and previewing the rasterized job in CWS, you can already see a difference between the text and the "text turned to outlines". Somewhere along the line, there are different toner limit rules for text than graphics and this concerns me. This should be something I have control over as an end user.

Nick_V
12-08-2010, 11:51 AM
Each OEM will have a different toner reduction specification for each different engine. It's not unheard of for an OEM to require that EFI treat text, linework, and continuous tone data differently with regard to their toner limits.


Under 200% there was no noticeable difference, everything printed exactly the same. Around 225% is the highest that it SEEMS to still be the same. At 250%, there is a definite difference between the text and the graphic.


there are different toner limit rules for text than graphics and this concerns me. This should be something I have control over as an end user.

You've managed to empirically determine what the toner reduction behavior for your Fiery/engine combination is. In your case, the specification appears to be for text and linework to be treated differently after a certain threshold.

Unfortunately, this is currently part of the product design and, since it involves the agreed-upon product specification between EFI and the OEM, is not something EFI can alter unilaterally (or quickly). This is one of those cases where the Fiery controller and the print engine have to be treated as a unit rather than independent entities.

Workarounds are to send only one kind of data. Converting text to outlines would be the best solution from a quality point of view. "Print as Image" out of Acrobat will also work. Or if you want to do manual toner reduction (as it were), you can try using substitute colors to bring the overall toner coverage down to the 225% threshold you've determined.

Also, please be aware that we know this is not a trivial issue and we agree with you that this is something the end user should have some control over. We are evaluating how to balance the OEM specifications with this goal. You can also help us here by bringing the issue up with Ricoh.