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oxident
08-21-2009, 01:34 AM
Hi!

I'm trying to set up a general purpose color management workflow for our DC250/DC252 machines (both with bustled Fiery) but after hours of thinking and trying I can't get acceptable results...

The problem is, that the prints we get from PDF files are way away from the quality we see when printing on large format printers (DesignJets) or the output our customers get when printing on their own cheap inkjet-printers.

I know that there are some quality aspects which can't be fixed because they are related to the way, color laser printers work (graininess, non-homogeneous color areas) but it can't be acceptable that almost all colors (mainly seen on photos but also on vector stuff) are printed darker as on any other device (calibrated monitor, inkjet printer)!

I guess this is just a matter of configuring the ColorWise options correctly but I'm really confused after reading the manual. As far as I've understood it, I have to "tell" Acrobat my monitor profile and a suitable output profile (I've chosen ISO Coated because all of my printers do support this one). But when I print some PDF files using Acrobat's Colormanagement, the output's colors are extremely shifted (images are too yellow or magenta). So far I achieve the best quality when using "Leave colors unchanged" but that can't be the correct way, can it?

Our customers aren't professionals, so I guess they just create their PDF files using InDesign's export function which converts all colors to CMYK using some profile (Euroscale or ISO coated). As I've read in this forum, ColorWise should honor those profiles (I guess, only when telling Acrobat to use "Printer colormagement") and it doesn't matter, which simulation profile is selected in ColorWise.

So then, which profile can I use to preview what the output would look like? The embedded profile, the Fiery's simulation profile or the Fiery's output profile?

I just want to add that I'm calibrating our printers using an DTP41 on exactly the same paper I'm using for printing (bright white 100gsm paper).

Another problem is that it seems the Fiery servers don't have a proper option to "smooth" very slim non-black lines by doing antialiasing in a way, inkjet-printers do. This often results in terribly broken lines.

Any thoughts on that? :rolleyes:

k_graham
08-21-2009, 01:46 PM
Hi!


I just want to add that I'm calibrating our printers using an DTP41 on exactly the same paper I'm using for printing (bright white 100gsm paper).



I haven't used the DTP41 but off the Glass and with the previous Densitometer I found I could not calibrate with high white ISO 96 and brighter paper, likely due to UV brighteners. I first do a Xerox Gradation Adjust with 90 brightness bond
(I then check that a wedding photo has good skintone and the White dress has definition and shadows in dress are Gray not pink, blue or yellowish. I did not have trouble with Xerox but with other suppliers found gray definition would suffer due to old developer or worn out drums - one can't expect good Fiery calibration with a copier thats not acceptable - A butterfly test sheet is only useful to butterflies people are concerned with skin tones.


Use a similar 90 brightness (cheap bond) paper for EFI calibration. Also test if you can do a EFI calibration on Card - I received faulty CD's that would not allow that, (setting not accessible when trying card), Xerox had to replace. Items print off when I try to calibrate on High Whiteness papers. If you have UV filtered Spectro this should not apply to you, but of course as you've complained try calibrating with 90 brightness papers.


All items should be done on a printer with all patches applied, Check Xerox site to see if you have all patches in place.



As far as I've understood it, I have to "tell" Acrobat my monitor profile


Adobe installs AdobeGamma in startup folder - if you are using a hardware device to create a profile as you should as it seems most monitors can not pass after 3 years , you will want to remove AdobeGamma from the startup folder of Windows.



Hi!

(I've chosen ISO Coated because all of my printers do support this one). But when I print some PDF files using Acrobat's Colormanagement, the output's colors are extremely shifted


Interesting, I just downloaded the latest EFI printer driver for Windows from Xerox and they don't seem to have ISO anymore or EFIRGB2, perhaps they found they had oversaturated it, they still have Euroscale. If you are setting in Adobe you could try setting to NONE for CMYK and RGB source file,(scroll to bottom of lists) my understanding was that something set in a program would then flow through.

I use EFIRGB for RGB and RelativeColorimetric and output but then I usually use CorelDraw and also set it there in Color management in place of sRGB.

For CMYK I use SWOP, Full Source, Media Defined but SWOP is more common in North America. I think SWOP or Euroscale are less saturated than ISO.

In addition in Printing Preferences, PaperQuality, Advanced , Image Color Management I set to managed by printer with Printer Calibration.

Make sure your Brightness setting is set to 100, not printers default in case someone has changed the printers default to a higher number.

You can also lower this number if items are too saturated such as if set to a heavier stock than is actually being printed.





Another problem is that it seems the Fiery servers don't have a proper option to "smooth" very slim non-black lines by doing antialiasing in a way, inkjet-printers do. This often results in terribly broken lines.



I had not noticed that but I don't have large format or the other to see the apparent problem.

Under Printer Quality, Image Screen mode I've been using 200 Cluster Dot as the finest setting. One might also try turning text graphic edge enhancement on.

Try the above items 1 at a time - What worked, what did not?

oxident
08-24-2009, 03:12 AM
Hi Ken!

Thanks for your very detailed answer!


I haven't used the DTP41 but off the Glass and with the previous Densitometer I found I could not calibrate with high white ISO 96 and brighter paper, likely due to UV brighteners. I first do a Xerox Gradation Adjust with 90 brightness bond
(I then check that a wedding photo has good skintone and the White dress has definition and shadows in dress are Gray not pink, blue or yellowish. I did not have trouble with Xerox but with other suppliers found gray definition would suffer due to old developer or worn out drums - one can't expect good Fiery calibration with a copier thats not acceptable - A butterfly test sheet is only useful to butterflies people are concerned with skin tones.

So you first do this "automatic gradiation adjust" directly on the copier? Which settings do you use there? In the past, I only set "copy jobs" as target there. If I'll use "copy and print jobs", the calibration data gets overwritten and the color quality of print jobs is really bad until I "re-calibrate" the Fiery using the DTP41 (or DTP32).
By the way, the quality of copy jobs is quite acceptable. Not perfect but okay.


Use a similar 90 brightness (cheap bond) paper for EFI calibration. Also test if you can do a EFI calibration on Card - I received faulty CD's that would not allow that, (setting not accessible when trying card), Xerox had to replace. Items print off when I try to calibrate on High Whiteness papers. If you have UV filtered Spectro this should not apply to you, but of course as you've complained try calibrating with 90 brightness papers.

That was a good point ... I didn't think about this but the results look almost identically when calibrating with regular plain paper. I guess either my Spectro is UV filtered or my paper doesn't contain any "optical enhancers".

Calibrating using ColorCal and the supplied card doesn't work. The ColorWise Tools keep telling me that there was an error in getting the scan file although I do everything exactly as I supposed to do (correct mailbox, colorspace set to DeviceRGB). Other scan jobs work perfectly so I guess it's not a general scanner fault. It might be a problem that the ColorCal-mailbox is set to Letter-format although the calibration page prints on an A4 page. But changing this to A4 doesn't work either.

I didn't call Xerox about that 'cause I thought that calibrating using a spectro would do this job even better.


All items should be done on a printer with all patches applied, Check Xerox site to see if you have all patches in place.

Yes, of course. Everything's applied on all of our printers.


Adobe installs AdobeGamma in startup folder - if you are using a hardware device to create a profile as you should as it seems most monitors can not pass after 3 years , you will want to remove AdobeGamma from the startup folder of Windows.

Yes I do use Adobe Gamma which loads my monitor profile (created with EyeOne). I don't use those extremely expensive WideRGB monitors but I think that the gammut of my monitors are quite "in range". Again, I would like to remind that the color output quality and brightness/saturation on our large format printers and even on a cheap Canon desktop inkjet outperforms the Xerox copiers in many areas...


Interesting, I just downloaded the latest EFI printer driver for Windows from Xerox and they don't seem to have ISO anymore or EFIRGB2, perhaps they found they had oversaturated it, they still have Euroscale. If you are setting in Adobe you could try setting to NONE for CMYK and RGB source file,(scroll to bottom of lists) my understanding was that something set in a program would then flow through.

Well, in my driver (I'm using the drivers for Fiery System 1.1) those profiles still exist. But I think the driver gets the information about available profiles directly from the Fiery when you open the properties page.

When I set the CMYK and RGB profiles to NONE I get extremely dark prints with shifted colors :(


I use EFIRGB for RGB and RelativeColorimetric and output but then I usually use CorelDraw and also set it there in Color management in place of sRGB.

I've tried that but the only visual difference was that the colors turn a bit into yellow (on grey areas). When using CorelDraw, I regularly get a "washed out" output when using the default settings (CMYK; generic profile). The colors are getting much better when using RGB-output.


For CMYK I use SWOP, Full Source, Media Defined but SWOP is more common in North America. I think SWOP or Euroscale are less saturated than ISO.

I've tried using Euroscale rather then ISO but (as seen on the CorelDraw testrun) the output only gets a little bit yellow.


In addition in Printing Preferences, PaperQuality, Advanced , Image Color Management I set to managed by printer with Printer Calibration.

Where did you set that? In the printer driver or somewhere within Acrobat?


Make sure your Brightness setting is set to 100, not printers default in case someone has changed the printers default to a higher number.

Yes, that's my default setting. But almost everytime, I set the Brightness to a somewhat higher level in order to get lighter results.


You can also lower this number if items are too saturated such as if set to a heavier stock than is actually being printed.

Nice idea ... but not possible for me. Our DCs tend to produce paper jams even with the correct stock setting, so I need to go the other way: Setting "normal stock" even for papers around 160gsm and setting Heavyweight 1 for papers above 200gsm. :(


Under Printer Quality, Image Screen mode I've been using 200 Cluster Dot as the finest setting. One might also try turning text graphic edge enhancement on.

Yes I'm also using 200 dot but I don't use text/graphics edge enhancement because then things get even worse. I guess the printer is then trying to print even thinner lines (which fails, of course).

k_graham
08-24-2009, 12:48 PM
Hi Ken!

Thanks for your very detailed answer!

So you first do this "automatic gradiation adjust" directly on the copier? Which settings do you use there? In the past, I only set "copy jobs" as target there. If I'll use "copy and print jobs", the calibration data gets overwritten and the color quality of print jobs is really bad until I "re-calibrate" the Fiery using the DTP41 (or DTP32).
By the way, the quality of copy jobs is quite acceptable. Not perfect but okay.

Yes I do the copy gradation but also the print gradation. I do it Before the Fiery Gradation as then the Fiery is going to pick up on the copier set to its best. EFI mentioned in another thread about turning the copier off as well so as the copier does its automatic calibration on startup, one might want to consider this just before doing the copier calibration - then do the Fiery calibration. Also make sure the output sheet looks perfect, if its got toner flecks print another.

My opinion is the Fiery should not need calibration unless something changes on the copier so best to have the copier at its peak before adjusting the Fiery.


That was a good point ... I didn't think about this but the results look almost identically when calibrating with regular plain paper. I guess either my Spectro is UV filtered or my paper doesn't contain any "optical enhancers".

Calibrating using ColorCal and the supplied card doesn't work. The ColorWise Tools keep telling me that there was an error in getting the scan file although I do everything exactly as I supposed to do (correct mailbox, colorspace set to DeviceRGB). Other scan jobs work perfectly so I guess it's not a general scanner fault. It might be a problem that the ColorCal-mailbox is set to Letter-format although the calibration page prints on an A4 page. But changing this to A4 doesn't work either.

I didn't call Xerox about that 'cause I thought that calibrating using a spectro would do this job even better.

I had this problem where I could calibrate on paper but not card - but it its not calibrating for card there may be other problems with the software that you were mentioning at the end. I suffered through a few months of this.

About 2 or 3 time we reloaded software from disk including patches - the frustrating part is it would then work with card the first time maybe the 2nd but within a couple weeks would refuse.

Xerox then replaced the hard disk - but used my software - same problem within 2 or 3 weeks.

Xerox then replaced the hard disk with one cloned from their good system and gave me replacement CD's. This worked for a year or 2 but one day system wouldn't boot - I had to use replacement CD's and it was good again but I had lost my favorite settings. After this I found software from www.clonzilla.org that clones the drive to an image. Now if I have a problem I can restore image from a USB drive in 30 minutes. I now keep images of all my computers on a external USB drive. But mine is an external RIP EXP250 with monitor for which I could use Cloning software - at any rate get Xerox to fix and likely provide replacement disks - EFI Fiery should use a Checksum routine that would verify install disks are good-during install.


Yes, of course. Everything's applied on all of our printers.

You've checked patch list against whats downloadable at Xerox as I think only the security patches download on my external EXP250 RIP other patches must be installed.

At least you can check, certain other manufacturers claim their machines are good when they haven't got even the basic patch required to use gloss toner instead of the previous models mat toner. Then when they do add the patch they neglect to mention a replacement printer driver is also needed.
Of course EFI should have provided replacement disk, not patches for a new model.


Yes I do use Adobe Gamma which loads my monitor profile (created with EyeOne). I don't use those extremely expensive WideRGB monitors but I think that the gammut of my monitors are quite "in range". Again, I would like to remind that the color output quality and brightness/saturation on our large format printers and even on a cheap Canon desktop inkjet outperforms the Xerox copiers in many areas...

Are we talking 4 color Xerox vs 4 color or do these others have 6 or 8 colors?



Well, in my driver (I'm using the drivers for Fiery System 1.1) those profiles still exist. But I think the driver gets the information about available profiles directly from the Fiery when you open the properties page.

You are right of course regards the drivers - it make me wonder why they are not in the downloadable driver though - I downloaded here as I'm actually in Mexico at the moment on holiday, will be back in Canada Sept 4

When I set the CMYK and RGB profiles to NONE I get extremely dark prints with shifted colors :(

Your sure thats to NONE and not OFF - My understanding was NONE was supposed to use a profile set within your program -assuming you had a profile set within your program



I've tried that but the only visual difference was that the colors turn a bit into yellow (on grey areas). When using CorelDraw, I regularly get a "washed out" output when using the default settings (CMYK; generic profile). The colors are getting much better when using RGB-output.

I use a SWOP profile within Corel but EFIRGB as the main colorspace and output looks like what outputs and like whats on my monitor. You might try it.



I've tried using Euroscale rather then ISO but (as seen on the CorelDraw testrun) the output only gets a little bit yellow.

Not sure what you mean by this, if you want to email me an attachment send to k_graham@hotmail.com


Where did you set that? In the printer driver or somewhere within Acrobat?

In the Printer Driver, not the Fiery Tab. On either of the 2 tabs to the left is an Advanced button - under the advanced button you can choose to use "Calibration within printer" Sorry I may have wording slightly off but you get the idea, its within the top 5 or 6 items on the list.



Yes, that's my default setting. But almost everytime, I set the Brightness to a somewhat higher level in order to get lighter results.

Excuse me as I am in Mexico at moment and can't verify but isn't 85 % lighter and 115% darker (brigher but as in more ink saturation)


Nice idea ... but not possible for me. Our DCs tend to produce paper jams even with the correct stock setting, so I need to go the other way: Setting "normal stock" even for papers around 160gsm and setting Heavyweight 1 for papers above 200gsm. :(

Thats what Xerox is for - get them to change your feed wheels thats not acceptable. The only exception might be if you are inserting paper into the machine incorrectly. Paper must be inserted face down in trays under the machine so it is face up when being copied onto. Generally it doesn't make a difference but it will jam more when double siding if not placed face down in trays under the machine. Oversize trays and sheet bypass require paper face up.


Yes I'm also using 200 dot but I don't use text/graphics edge enhancement because then things get even worse. I guess the printer is then trying to print even thinner lines (which fails, of course).


Maybe the replacement disks will fix this as well.

oxident
08-25-2009, 11:31 PM
Hi Ken!

Xerox is going to exchange our DC250 to a DC252 and I'll re-test those things as soon as I've got the new machine.


My opinion is the Fiery should not need calibration unless something changes on the copier so best to have the copier at its peak before adjusting the Fiery.

Yes, that sounds logically to me. Before calibrating the copier the next time, I'll do that graduation adjustment on the machine. But I'll also make some test copies when I've got the machine in order to have something to compare for the future.


I had this problem where I could calibrate on paper but not card - but it its not calibrating for card there may be other problems with the software that you were mentioning at the end. I suffered through a few months of this.

That's interesting. Now I think that I'm also having trouble with the installed system software (see my other thread about upgrading to version 1.2). I really guess that there's something wrong with it. Unfortunately, I only have the embedded Fiery which is running EFI-Linux. Nevertheless, I'm also going to make an image of the HDD as soon as the new copier has arrived.


Are we talking 4 color Xerox vs 4 color or do these others have 6 or 8 colors?

In fact we're talking about an 8 colors inkjet printer as well as an old Canon Pixma 3 colors (plus black) printer.


Your sure thats to NONE and not OFF - My understanding was NONE was supposed to use a profile set within your program -assuming you had a profile set within your program

Well, I always thought that OFF means no correction at all and you then have to use the Fiery's output profile in your application (?). When setting to NONE, I agree that the Fiery should "use" the simulation profile embedded by the application.

The first way (OFF with v2F-output profile in Acrobat) produces those extremely dark/black output. The second way (NONE with ISO coated in Acrobat) produces slightly dark and yellowish output.


In the Printer Driver, not the Fiery Tab. On either of the 2 tabs to the left is an Advanced button - under the advanced button you can choose to use "Calibration within printer" Sorry I may have wording slightly off but you get the idea, its within the top 5 or 6 items on the list.

Yes I've found what you mean. On the first look it didn't produce any differences in output. Do you really think that it makes a difference? Again, I've compared this the according setting in my large format printer (also using this postscript driver-framework) and there it is also set to "ICC disabled".
I guess, this setting only applies to "Non-Adobe" applications. But I'll review this also when getting the new machine.


Excuse me as I am in Mexico at moment and can't verify but isn't 85 % lighter and 115% darker (brigher but as in more ink saturation)

Yes, sorry, I've misspelled this. I've meant that I'm setting up a brighter value (90%-95%) for almost any print job in order to avoid those dark images.

... so, have a nice holiday ;-)

k_graham
08-26-2009, 10:22 PM
In fact we're talking about an 8 colors inkjet printer as well as an old Canon Pixma 3 colors (plus black) printer.

... so, have a nice holiday ;-)

I was thinking about what you said, having to run stock faster at the lighter weight setting. I prefer to run at heavier setting and reduce brightness as I think quality is better. I've not seen 4 color printers do better but can see where 8 colors should.

Our EXP250 RIP seems to have a bit of Linux hidden within it - Only 3 partitions are visible when looked at with XP but when backed up using www.clonezilla.org free software it shows a 4th ext3 partion. I've not looked to see if there's software within it. One thing is certain you need to use a cloning type software to get a complete backup.


Regards your use of AdobeGamma you are probably correct in using it - my current profiler is from Monaco and it provided its own so I made a assumption other hardware profilers would do the same.

I think Windows7 is including its own color management system so may not need or may conflict with AdobeGamma. More issues for future.

Regards using printer ICM with calibration - I've simply always used it - does it work better I can't say - just seemed the logical thing to do given what it claimed to be - perhaps EFI Fiery can comment.

Good idea to get some good samples when receiving a new machine - and like I said also get something off the glass so you know the tech is leaving it the same each time. We've not had trouble with Xerox but I can see why the competition uses a butterfly for a test sheet - who knows what a good looking butterfly is supposed to look like? And if it doesn't make copies off the glass that look the same I guarantee calibration of the Fiery won't likely have prints look the same!

oxident
08-27-2009, 12:58 AM
I was thinking about what you said, having to run stock faster at the lighter weight setting. I prefer to run at heavier setting and reduce brightness as I think quality is better.

Yes, the fact that lighter weight setting results in faster printer speed is a nice "side effect" but for me it's more important that the prints are not so curly when printed using a "lighter" setting.


I've not seen 4 color printers do better but can see where 8 colors should.

When talking about the reproduction of special colors, like skin tones or light blue sky gradients, an 8 color inkjet outperforms every 4 color printer, of course, but I was just comparing the overall saturation of the prints. There I can see that the image's brightness is much closer to the monitor display when printed on inkjet printers...


Our EXP250 RIP seems to have a bit of Linux hidden within it - Only 3 partitions are visible when looked at with XP but when backed up using www.clonezilla.org free software it shows a 4th ext3 partion. I've not looked to see if there's software within it. One thing is certain you need to use a cloning type software to get a complete backup.

I know clonezilla and I'm going to try it. The last time I cloned my Fiery I've used Acronis True Image which also revealed those hidden partitions. On my bustled Fiery, there were a total of 12 partitions!


I think Windows7 is including its own color management system so may not need or may conflict with AdobeGamma. More issues for future.

Yeah, that's right. I've already tried that and it looks like Win7 only requires the ICC profile for your monitor associated with your display and it will adjust the colors automatically. But after all it's just what AdobeGamma does.


Regards using printer ICM with calibration - I've simply always used it - does it work better I can't say - just seemed the logical thing to do given what it claimed to be - perhaps EFI Fiery can comment.

I agree to that! But now I see that this option isn't available anymore in the new printer driver (DC252 and DC240 1.2). Maybe it's still there but it's not visible anymore. In the old driver I also noticed two options about converting RGB-Grey to Postscript-Grey (which seems to convert grey values to K-values). What about that?


Good idea to get some good samples when receiving a new machine - and like I said also get something off the glass so you know the tech is leaving it the same each time. We've not had trouble with Xerox but I can see why the competition uses a butterfly for a test sheet - who knows what a good looking butterfly is supposed to look like? And if it doesn't make copies off the glass that look the same I guarantee calibration of the Fiery won't likely have prints look the same!

Yes, I agree. I've seen this butterfly on Canon machines but, as you said, it's difficult to say how a butterfly should look like. I've taken the time and copied an ITF-Testchart, containing many colors and some high quality images. The copy looks great on my new (fresh) machine. Let's see how it will develop within the next months.

Another strange thing is that the Fiery testprint looked really great using the default factory calibration. I've then calibrated the system using my DTP41 (also tried a DTP32) and again, I've noticed that the prints are getting darker. But I'm quite sure my Spectro works well because I also use this device to calibrate my large format printers and the values I get there are quite in range. But the prints do look brighter than on my old DC250...

oxident
09-01-2009, 03:56 AM
I'm starting to think that those brightness problems may have two other possible causes:

Can it be that the built-in support for (Non EFI-)spectros is somehow broken?
I mean, as I've posted before, the prints start getting darker *after* I've calibrated the printer using my DTP41 (on regular paper as well as on bright paper). I do also calibrate my large format printers using this spectro so I'm quite sure it isn't a hardware fault.
Does anyone know an easy way to measure the color density in another application (just to make sure the ColorWise tool does this job correctly)?
I have access to Gretag's ProfileMaker suite but I'm not quite sure how to use it this way :rolleyes:

Somewhere I've read that this saturation problem has something to do with the double black toner those Xerox' machines use or the way, the Fiery uses black toner (instead of CMY).

k_graham
09-02-2009, 07:05 AM
I'm starting to think that those brightness problems may have two other possible causes:

Can it be that the built-in support for (Non EFI-)spectros is somehow broken?
I mean, as I've posted before, the prints start getting darker *after* I've calibrated the printer using my DTP41 (on regular paper as well as on bright paper). I do also calibrate my large format printers using this spectro so I'm quite sure it isn't a hardware fault.
Does anyone know an easy way to measure the color density in another application (just to make sure the ColorWise tool does this job correctly)?
I have access to Gretag's ProfileMaker suite but I'm not quite sure how to use it this way :rolleyes:

Somewhere I've read that this saturation problem has something to do with the double black toner those Xerox' machines use or the way, the Fiery uses black toner (instead of CMY).


Sorry Oxident;

You have said your system refuses to calibrate on Card - I've been through this with Xerox

1.) I and then they reinstalled software on my external EXP. It would last a few days then same problem.

2.) Xerox Replaced drive - reinstalled software, same problem within a week.

3.) Xerox Cloned drive with known good system but also provided new system disks. - this worked and a year or 2 later I had a problem where Fiery would not boot but after reinstalling with the NEW system disks I had no problem. I now keep a backup of software with applied patches using www.clonezilla.org software so instead of spending hours installing and adding patches and fixing shortcuts I can do a 20 minute re-install.

Your calibration subsystem is not working who is to say what else - given the above I suggest asking for replacement disks but whatever, get Xerox to make it work or get them to provide a replacement RIP.

oxident
09-02-2009, 08:12 AM
Your calibration subsystem is not working who is to say what else - given the above I suggest asking for replacement disks but whatever, get Xerox to make it work or get them to provide a replacement RIP.

Well, it sounds a little bit mysterious to me that the new DC252 (with new RIP) suffers exactly the same problems than the old DC250 :(

k_graham
09-02-2009, 12:15 PM
Well, it sounds a little bit mysterious to me that the new DC252 (with new RIP) suffers exactly the same problems than the old DC250 :(

Sorry Oxident, is the new system calibrating on Card and paper?

If yes great, perhaps try a Off the Glass calibration, ask Xerox their recommended paper for calibration - I use their Supreme Gloss for card and as mentioned previously a cheap bond which I don't think has UV brightners.

If not able to calibrate on both then have Xerox fix it or replace with a External RIP or whatever it takes it is their problem and I'm guessing its faulty disks.

Another item could still be the monitor profile - my Monaco lets me select a white point of 5000, 6500 or 9300 Kelvin and custom. (i could be mistaken on the middle one its 6500 or 7500 - don't remember for sure at moment.

5000 is darkest on monitor, also coincides with recommended graphic arts lighting. but I feel is darker, slightly more yellowish and coincides with no lights a client would have. 6500-7500 corresponds to Northern Daylight by my understanding and is what I set it at. However I also use Sylvania T-8 Octron Daylight Flourescents. My thought being this aproximate what items should look like when viewed outside or with natural lighting which I think is what people should be striving for. 9300 K is considered for Web to create bright graphics and has no reason to be used with printing.

Hope some of this helps.

oxident
09-03-2009, 12:45 AM
Hi Ken!

Thanks for all of your help. I really appreciate this...


Sorry Oxident, is the new system calibrating on Card and paper?

Can't say for the moment. Xerox forgot to include the Kodak-Card :mad:
Maybe I'll get it next week.


If yes great, perhaps try a Off the Glass calibration, ask Xerox their recommended paper for calibration - I use their Supreme Gloss for card and as mentioned previously a cheap bond which I don't think has UV brightners.

Just to make sure I understand you correctly: By saying "Off the Glass calibration" you mean using a Spectro, don't you?


If not able to calibrate on both then have Xerox fix it or replace with a External RIP or whatever it takes it is their problem and I'm guessing its faulty disks.

I'll surely will.


Another item could still be the monitor profile - my Monaco lets me select a white point of 5000, 6500 or 9300 Kelvin and custom. (i could be mistaken on the middle one its 6500 or 7500 - don't remember for sure at moment.

5000 is darkest on monitor, also coincides with recommended graphic arts lighting. but I feel is darker, slightly more yellowish and coincides with no lights a client would have. 6500-7500 corresponds to Northern Daylight by my understanding and is what I set it at. However I also use Sylvania T-8 Octron Daylight Flourescents. My thought being this aproximate what items should look like when viewed outside or with natural lighting which I think is what people should be striving for. 9300 K is considered for Web to create bright graphics and has no reason to be used with printing.

Yes, that sounds logically to me but I guess that I can't force my customers to calibrate their monitors this way. I mean, you're absolutely right when saying that the color temperature (and a neutral ambient light) it extremely important for correct color matching. But I guess where talking about "slight nuances" and not that grey turns into yellow and every image looks like being taken in the middle of the night :rolleyes:

k_graham
09-03-2009, 09:22 AM
Hi Ken!

Thanks for all of your help. I really appreciate this...



Can't say for the moment. Xerox forgot to include the Kodak-Card :mad:
Maybe I'll get it next week.



Just to make sure I understand you correctly: By saying "Off the Glass calibration" you mean using a Spectro, don't you?

Actually no - as you say you have been having troubles where the Spectro is not working for you I was saying to print a calibration sheet and measure it by scanning it on the glass, but that is only if you can do a card calibration. Even without the Kodak card greyscale card you know how to select for Card however and if it refuses to print a calibration sheet you know the software is broke. In that case Xerox must fix or replace it before you can even consider using a Spectro or off the Glass calibration.

In mechanics it is like a tire. The tire must be able to hold air before you can adjust the pressure. If your unit can not print the calibration sheet for card in tire terms its not even able to hold air. No point in trying to use the pressure gauge (spectro)





I'll surely will.



Yes, that sounds logically to me but I guess that I can't force my customers to calibrate their monitors this way. I mean, you're absolutely right when saying that the color temperature (and a neutral ambient light) it extremely important for correct color matching. But I guess where talking about "slight nuances" and not that grey turns into yellow and every image looks like being taken in the middle of the night :rolleyes:

I'm not concerned with what your customers see on there monitor but only that whats brought up on your monitor closely resembles what you print out. If so you can show the customer ahead of the print out whats its looking like and either decide to adjust photos or if it looks okay but light or dark then guestimate some percentage lighter or darker.

oxident
09-04-2009, 01:39 AM
Okay, now I've got the point :rolleyes:

The ColorCal-sheet prints correctly and today, I've received the replacement card (which isn't from Kodak anymore... now Tiffen produces them) and I've already tried to do the ColorCal calibration.

In contrast to my old DC250, the entire process now seems to work and the results on comparison page are nearly as good as when calibrating using my DTP41 (the colors are not so perfect balanced as when using the spectro).

But this doesn't seem to fix my brightness issue :(


I'm not concerned with what your customers see on there monitor but only that whats brought up on your monitor closely resembles what you print out. If so you can show the customer ahead of the print out whats its looking like and either decide to adjust photos or if it looks okay but light or dark then guestimate some percentage lighter or darker.


Of course you're right. It would help a lot if I'm able to preview the brightness without doing several testprints. But when I try to adjust my monitor as described (lower color temperature or even brightness), I loose the ability to preview the output for our other machines which already match the colors quite well (Canon CLC and our large format printers).

It can't be true that I need to switch my monitor settings back and forth every time, I'm going to print on the DC252, can it?

k_graham
09-04-2009, 11:36 PM
Of course you're right. It would help a lot if I'm able to preview the brightness without doing several testprints. But when I try to adjust my monitor as described (lower color temperature or even brightness), I loose the ability to preview the output for our other machines which already match the colors quite well (Canon CLC and our large format printers).

It can't be true that I need to switch my monitor settings back and forth every time, I'm going to print on the DC252, can it?

1.) You have a Reference sheet and Grayscale images, color References etc.

2.) Scan them using the Docucolor using Photographic option probably 300 dpi

3.) Output to your devices and check on your monitor

Monitor should closely resemble ORIGINAL - what monitor profile worked 5000, 6500-7500, 9300 custom, color temp worked?

Print out, using previous print options mentioned and perhaps including NONE and SWOP Coated

The units that match the original color and greyscale items are the correct ones.


Send me your email address and I will try sending you something in the next couple days that should help - I will be home this weekend.

In the mean time if you are sending something via your desired color reference - and if you've set a color temp on the monitor that matches, but doesn't for the other devices you may want to set either the Canon, or Xerox or large format printer an arbitrary brightness by going outside of any program to the printers in control panel and setting the default brightness to a different level which is limited in Fiery's to 5% increments. This is assuming you set up your printer as a LOCAL printer. If you set it up as a NETWORK printer then you would set the default brightness Via Command Workstation and it would be the same for each computer hooked up and using as a network printer - of course if monitors vary you'ld be better to have then hooked as a Local printer so you could set each computer to printer output brighteness desired.

If you have a test sheet you like to use send it to me as well and I can send you the one I made up. Also any particular file that is an issue, send to ken@communityprinters.com

oxident
09-07-2009, 02:33 AM
Hi Ken!

Thanks for all the time reading my requests.
Unfortunately it seems that I can't easily change the color temp of my monitor because it is now calibrated at 6500K and as far as I've understood this correctly, setting a new color temp involves recalibration, doesn't it?

By the way, wasn't it so that the color temp "only" affects the balance between R, G and B? If that's true than I guess this area of color matching is quite okay. I mean, when I create a color in Photoshop which is, for example, 100 R=G=B, my monitor shows a quite neutral grey.

Okay, I could then try to adjust my monitor color temp in order to reflect the output color. I'll give this a try.

Another thing which came to my mind is that I'm going to use the MeasureTool (from the ProfileMaker suite) to calculate the delta values between the given and the measured value using my spectro.

Maybe this will uncover some "hidden" problems which I can show the Xerox tech...

I'll send you a testpage which really drives me crazy. If you could take a short look on it I would be really happy. But please don't hurry ... ;)

k_graham
09-07-2009, 07:26 AM
Thanks for all the time reading my requests.
Unfortunately it seems that I can't easily change the color temp of my monitor because it is now calibrated at 6500K and as far as I've understood this correctly, setting a new color temp involves recalibration, doesn't it?

Yes

Okay, I could then try to adjust my monitor color temp in order to reflect the output color. I'll give this a try.

NO - to match the Original (input color) everything is to match the original,


Are any of the devices matching the original item for darkness after you scan and print your test reference like an it8 chart or even the Gray scale and color reference provided with the Fiery for calibrating the scanner?

Please provide the order of accuracy compared to Orignal. Example
1. Monitor, (match - at Profile color temp)
2. 8 color printer
3. Doc 242 (5 - 10% darker than original (not monitor)
4. Canon

We want the Monitor to match the original item and the print outs to match the original.

With our Monaco monitor profiler (since bought out by Xrite) profiling includes asking our Ambient light condition. Bright Room-lots of Windows, Medium, or Low light. (Now I would assume an even better unit would simply measure the light in the room at the location where you compare photos to monitor and adjust appropriately)

Based on the ambient light specified the monitor is calibrated so In a bright office a brighter image is displayed even though its still specified as 6500 so that the monitor looks like the scan from the calibrated Doc242 scanner. The brightness and contrast controls are supposed not to be touched after this monitor calibration, till the next calibration. If yours is asking about ambient light you might specify differently to get image on monitor matching original. Please use the Fiery Calibrated scanner on the Doc242 or tell us what you are using to scan.

Also have you tried 5000k as that is the default in the printing industry. And alternatively would be a custom temperature simply so in your estimation the original items via calibrated scanner scan is matching on the monitor.

I have purchased my IT8 reference from http://www.targets.coloraid.de/
though this is not necessary for calibrating the newer Doc242 as Fiery includes a calibration method, it is a good original to compare to output and on monitor.

oxident
09-23-2009, 04:32 AM
I've made some experiments with my DTP41 and measured a linearization sheet produced with my DC252 using "None" as simulation profile.

To compare the results, I've also printed the sheet on my large format printer (HP Z6100) without color management.

The results look quite mysterious to me:

http://img97.imageshack.us/img97/4953/unbenannt1r.th.jpg (http://img97.imageshack.us/i/unbenannt1r.jpg/)

As you can see, the density of the black toner (the other colors show the same effect) makes a big "bump" at about 50% ...

I guess that's why my prints look so dark.